KG Schooling Patty

[Chris]

Tommy made a great point last night. Do you guys really think KG would waste his time trying to teach someone he thinks has no potential? He must see something in the kid to want to try to personally teach him.

Fair enough.  But that doesn't mean he has any chance of meeting his potential this year.

Honestly, I could care less about whether he is Lazy, or the hardest working player in the history of the world.  All I care about is whether he is good enough to play Center for the World Champion Celtics this year.  So far, all evidence points to NO.

Do you really think, Chris, that Danny had visions of O'Bryant, a lottery pick who couldn't get a contract for more than the NBA minimum, making a significant contribution to a world championship team?  

I can't fathom that anybody in the Celtics' organization had even an inkling of that when they signed O'Bryant.

I'm further amazed that anybody thought that Garnett's mere presence would instantly turn O'Bryant into a starting NBA center.  Garnett has no history of that.  

I maintain that we won't know anything about O'Bryant until after mid-season and this, and any other thread about O'Bryant is a venture into nothingness.

I keep hearing about Courtney Sims.  If Sims is that good and O'Bryant is that bad, why has no NBA team picked up Sims?  Why is O'Bryant still on an NBA roster?  Let alone the world champion's roster?  Just wonderin'

Oh, I completely agree with this.  I think Danny took a flyer on POB, not expecting much of anything from him this year...especially not this early.  I even remember him saying as much in interviews.

POB was signed as a project, who basically would be an extra big body in practice, and had the potential of helping the team in the future, if he wasn't cut for a veteran before that.

I just don't get the whole "Doc needs to give him a shot" arguments.  It is like Michael Bishop Syndrome.

[EJPLAYA]

Tommy made a great point last night. Do you guys really think KG would waste his time trying to teach someone he thinks has no potential? He must see something in the kid to want to try to personally teach him.

Fair enough.  But that doesn't mean he has any chance of meeting his potential this year.

Honestly, I could care less about whether he is Lazy, or the hardest working player in the history of the world.  All I care about is whether he is good enough to play Center for the World Champion Celtics this year.  So far, all evidence points to NO.

I am not sure how you can say that there is no evidence that the guy can't come in and be productive.?! Every time I see him on the floor he is getting a rebound, blocking a shot, scoring. Yes I know it is against their second unit, but that is exactly what we are asking him to do. If it is only for his shot blocking and rebounding I think he brings us something that BBD can't. I even think I saw a little more effort last night to rotate defensively. I think it is a valid discussion that he can play that role, but stating that he has not done anything well that would show a sign of being capable isn't accurate.

BBD last night - 18 min - 2 pts 1 reb, 1 assist (did like the three steals)
POB last night - 6 min - 4 pts, 3 reb and 1 assist.

If you had never seen either play or heard anything about them you'd sure think that POB was the better player. As I have said before, he has a lot of things he needs to work on, but he fills out that stat sheet every time he is given the chance.

Come on EJ!!!

Dude, you have a good argument and I don't necessarily agree with it but using last night stats as a gauge is ridiculous and you know it. Baby played during meaningful minutes in the game and helped in building a lead that eventually got so large and was still so large with so little time left in the game that finally Doc felt confident enough that he could put O'Bryant in without it costing him a game.

And that more than any stat you can throw this way is the reason POB sits until it is virtually impossible for him to screw up so bad that it costs the C's a game and why Baby plays meaningful minutes that actually contribute positively to wins.

I'm not just using last night's stats as I have in this and the other Free POB thread used night after night of the same. He is averaging 2 pts and 1.5 boards a game in only 4 minutes of play. BBD on the other hand is averaging 3.6 pts and 3 boards in FOUR TIMES the playing time. Yes I know there are times when BBD is playing against better competition. Yes I know that BBD does other things better than POB. I'm just really thinking with 16 min a game POB would be averaging more points, boards, and blocks than BBD. I do agree guys need to earn their minutes and that POB needs to if he wants to stick in this league. I am saying though that I am not convinced BBD is doing that though. Part of my desire to have POB play is a little lesson to BBD as to the need to play better and get in better shape.

[guava_wrench]

The POB having potential point is a non-point. He's a tall guy who can jump, but he isn't a good player. He seems like he has potential since he seems to be underperfoming, but this might be all he is.

He was yelled at cuz he looks like he lacks intensity and people find it frustrating. The idea that KG getting upset with him is somehow a good sign is silly.

[gar]

Glad to see we have moved beyond the POB is lazy talk. For me the issue is that at this level there is not a lot of latitude in terms of physical characteristics, apptitude or talent. Danny has been trying to patch together a bench on the cheap. To turn on the players because they are not Dwight Howard or KG is absurd. Just because POB is a 7 footer does not make him KG. Yes hard work is important; but POB will never be as athletic as KG or as strong as Perk. Just because he is not getting minutes does not mean he is not working.

As for Docs "POB speed" quote that is an indication that there may be limitations in relation to his wiring or it could also refer to the pace of his development. It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time). Remember Perk was able to develop because he got major minutes early on a mediocre team.

[housecall]

Glad to see we have moved beyond the POB is lazy talk. For me the issue is that at this level there is not a lot of latitude in terms of physical characteristics, apptitude or talent. Danny has been trying to patch together a bench on the cheap. To turn on the players because they are not Dwight Howard or KG is absurd. Just because POB is a 7 footer does not make him KG. Yes hard work is important; but POB will never be as athletic as KG or as strong as Perk. Just because he is not getting minutes does not mean he is not working.

As for Docs "POB speed" quote that is an indication that there may be limitations in relation to his wiring or it could also refer to the pace of his development. It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time). Remember Perk was able to develop because he got major minutes early on a mediocre team.

TP for a very well said post.I thought i was alone in thinking that we haven't seen enough playing time from him to really judge him.Also what evidence do we really have to condemn the guy,a few minute here,there but not any playing time in game time when its important to win.I just don't like beating up on a player until i see more reasons to than what we have seen.He's not getting paid big money,so you can't expect but so much from him.He will never be a KG  but in time he might be a good backup C with a little patients.

[cordobes]

To turn on the players because they are not Dwight Howard or KG is absurd. Just because POB is a 7 footer does not make him KG. Yes hard work is important; but POB will never be as athletic as KG or as strong as Perk.

He's not getting paid big money,so you can't expect but so much from him.He will never be a KG 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[cordobes]

It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time).

Yeah, but it would be fair to expect him to outplay Powe and BBD, no?

Anyway, can someone answer me this: I understand the low risk, but how high is the reward? Exactly how good do you project POB to be, assuming he indeed develops his game enough to stay on the floor? For example, better than Francisco Elson, another 7 footer who has a decent jumper for a center? Will POB at his peak be as good as Elson in his prime?

[drza44]

It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time).

Yeah, but it would be fair to expect him to outplay Powe and BBD, no?

Anyway, can someone answer me this: I understand the low risk, but how high is the reward? Exactly how good do you project POB to be, assuming he indeed develops his game enough to stay on the floor? For example, better than Francisco Elson, another 7 footer who has a decent jumper for a center? Will POB at his peak be as good as Elson in his prime?

His upside isn't really defined yet, so this is a hard question to answer.  In theory, he has the physical ability to be a defensive anchor with strong rebounding and shotblocking.  That is where he would project out highest...on offense, who knows, but defensively his "best case scenario" is a double-digit rebounder 2+ blocked shots defensive anchor as a starting center.  The real question is how likely he is to reach that upside vs. the cost of having him on the team.  Right now I don't really see much cost to him being on the team, so I agree with the "low risk/high upside" characterization.

[nickagneta]

Glad to see we have moved beyond the POB is lazy talk. For me the issue is that at this level there is not a lot of latitude in terms of physical characteristics, apptitude or talent. Danny has been trying to patch together a bench on the cheap. To turn on the players because they are not Dwight Howard or KG is absurd. Just because POB is a 7 footer does not make him KG. Yes hard work is important; but POB will never be as athletic as KG or as strong as Perk. Just because he is not getting minutes does not mean he is not working.

As for Docs "POB speed" quote that is an indication that there may be limitations in relation to his wiring or it could also refer to the pace of his development. It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time). Remember Perk was able to develop because he got major minutes early on a mediocre team.

Exactly what do you consider major minutes??

Perk's minutes per game:

2003-04    3.5
2004-05    9.1
2005-06    19.6
2006-07    21.9
2007-08    24.5
2008-09    28.9

Perk didn't even start to play starter type minutes until this year. Posey, a bench player played more minutes per game last year than Perk did. What do you consider major minutes because the starting center on this team wasn't even playing starting minutes last year. And yet every year that Perk played in the league that equates to the same number year that POB played, he has dwarfed his stats except for the first year.

Perk was a fat blob with no, and I mean, no NBA skills whatsoever and he averaged 3.5 minutes, 2.2 points and 1.4 rebounds IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL YEAR AT 18 YEARS OLD. POB in his THIRD PROFESSIONAL YEAR after 2 YEARS OF DIVISION I NCAA BASKETBALL is averaging 2.0 points and 1.5 rebounds, his best career year ever. YES I SAID EVER!!!!

Perk was considered a back up sub at best even last year when he started for the World Champions. That's when after 5 years of post high school organized basketball he was averaging 7 points and 6 rebounds a game. And people considered him a back up at best in the quality of his play.

In POB's fifth season post high school basketball he can't even average what Perk averaged at 18 years old and as fat and out of shape as he as ever been in his NBA career. Come on people. Enough with the potential and he's really just a rookie talk. Just parallel his career and Perks's and then render a decision because compared to Perk, a player that just last year people considered a back up at best, he's is awful. I mean their career's aren't even close to being comparable and they are almost the same age.

POB can't even say that his development looks good as compared to Perk and Perk is in his sixth year and has made POB's playing time and stats appear small by comparison. How sad is that?

[EJPLAYA]

Glad to see we have moved beyond the POB is lazy talk. For me the issue is that at this level there is not a lot of latitude in terms of physical characteristics, apptitude or talent. Danny has been trying to patch together a bench on the cheap. To turn on the players because they are not Dwight Howard or KG is absurd. Just because POB is a 7 footer does not make him KG. Yes hard work is important; but POB will never be as athletic as KG or as strong as Perk. Just because he is not getting minutes does not mean he is not working.

As for Docs "POB speed" quote that is an indication that there may be limitations in relation to his wiring or it could also refer to the pace of his development. It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time). Remember Perk was able to develop because he got major minutes early on a mediocre team.

Exactly what do you consider major minutes??

Perk's minutes per game:

2003-04    3.5
2004-05    9.1
2005-06    19.6
2006-07    21.9
2007-08    24.5
2008-09    28.9

Perk didn't even start to play starter type minutes until this year. Posey, a bench player played more minutes per game last year than Perk did. What do you consider major minutes because the starting center on this team wasn't even playing starting minutes last year. And yet every year that Perk played in the league that equates to the same number year that POB played, he has dwarfed his stats except for the first year.

Perk was a fat blob with no, and I mean, no NBA skills whatsoever and he averaged 3.5 minutes, 2.2 points and 1.4 rebounds IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL YEAR AT 18 YEARS OLD. POB in his THIRD PROFESSIONAL YEAR after 2 YEARS OF DIVISION I NCAA BASKETBALL is averaging 2.0 points and 1.5 rebounds, his best career year ever. YES I SAID EVER!!!!

Perk was considered a back up sub at best even last year when he started for the World Champions. That's when after 5 years of post high school organized basketball he was averaging 7 points and 6 rebounds a game. And people considered him a back up at best in the quality of his play.

In POB's fifth season post high school basketball he can't even average what Perk averaged at 18 years old and as fat and out of shape as he as ever been in his NBA career. Come on people. Enough with the potential and he's really just a rookie talk. Just parallel his career and Perks's and then render a decision because compared to Perk, a player that just last year people considered a back up at best, he's is awful. I mean their career's aren't even close to being comparable and they are almost the same age.

POB can't even say that his development looks good as compared to Perk and Perk is in his sixth year and has made POB's playing time and stats appear small by comparison. How sad is that?

Not sure the age has anything to do with it. Perk has been a much thicker and stronger player than POB even at that young age which allowed him to be a little better immediately. It didn't hurt that he has a mean streak. If we are comparing the two though, when Perk got the minutes that POB has now he put up the same stats. It was only after he played more minutes that he was able to develop and improve his game out there, however only defensively at first. His offense is barely now respectable and many of us thought it would never come. Are you saying that as Perk went from nothing numbers with only potential to a very solid center, it isn't possible for POB to become a solid backup?! He put up solid numbers in college, solid numbers in the D league, so the only numbers you don't like were under Nellie and I don't know that I trust what he got out of POB with his system. The guy is a project who shows a lot more overall skill than Perk did that first year with us. BBD isn't exactly doing much for us. Where is the downside in giving the kid some minutes and seeing if he can develop some confidence?!

[guava_wrench]

Perk did not develop because he got minutes.

Perk got minutes because he developed.

[nickagneta]

Glad to see we have moved beyond the POB is lazy talk. For me the issue is that at this level there is not a lot of latitude in terms of physical characteristics, apptitude or talent. Danny has been trying to patch together a bench on the cheap. To turn on the players because they are not Dwight Howard or KG is absurd. Just because POB is a 7 footer does not make him KG. Yes hard work is important; but POB will never be as athletic as KG or as strong as Perk. Just because he is not getting minutes does not mean he is not working.

As for Docs "POB speed" quote that is an indication that there may be limitations in relation to his wiring or it could also refer to the pace of his development. It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time). Remember Perk was able to develop because he got major minutes early on a mediocre team.

Exactly what do you consider major minutes??

Perk's minutes per game:

2003-04    3.5
2004-05    9.1
2005-06    19.6
2006-07    21.9
2007-08    24.5
2008-09    28.9

Perk didn't even start to play starter type minutes until this year. Posey, a bench player played more minutes per game last year than Perk did. What do you consider major minutes because the starting center on this team wasn't even playing starting minutes last year. And yet every year that Perk played in the league that equates to the same number year that POB played, he has dwarfed his stats except for the first year.

Perk was a fat blob with no, and I mean, no NBA skills whatsoever and he averaged 3.5 minutes, 2.2 points and 1.4 rebounds IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL YEAR AT 18 YEARS OLD. POB in his THIRD PROFESSIONAL YEAR after 2 YEARS OF DIVISION I NCAA BASKETBALL is averaging 2.0 points and 1.5 rebounds, his best career year ever. YES I SAID EVER!!!!

Perk was considered a back up sub at best even last year when he started for the World Champions. That's when after 5 years of post high school organized basketball he was averaging 7 points and 6 rebounds a game. And people considered him a back up at best in the quality of his play.

In POB's fifth season post high school basketball he can't even average what Perk averaged at 18 years old and as fat and out of shape as he as ever been in his NBA career. Come on people. Enough with the potential and he's really just a rookie talk. Just parallel his career and Perks's and then render a decision because compared to Perk, a player that just last year people considered a back up at best, he's is awful. I mean their career's aren't even close to being comparable and they are almost the same age.

POB can't even say that his development looks good as compared to Perk and Perk is in his sixth year and has made POB's playing time and stats appear small by comparison. How sad is that?

Not sure the age has anything to do with it. Perk has been a much thicker and stronger player than POB even at that young age which allowed him to be a little better immediately. It didn't hurt that he has a mean streak. If we are comparing the two though, when Perk got the minutes that POB has now he put up the same stats. It was only after he played more minutes that he was able to develop and improve his game out there, however only defensively at first. His offense is barely now respectable and many of us thought it would never come. Are you saying that as Perk went from nothing numbers with only potential to a very solid center, it isn't possible for POB to become a solid backup?! He put up solid numbers in college, solid numbers in the D league, so the only numbers you don't like were under Nellie and I don't know that I trust what he got out of POB with his system. The guy is a project who shows a lot more overall skill than Perk did that first year with us. BBD isn't exactly doing much for us. Where is the downside in giving the kid some minutes and seeing if he can develop some confidence?!

You admit that where Perk showed he excelled was at the defensive end. EJ, I know you played the game, we all have. Defense is a mind set and even the most mediocre of physical specimens can be good defenders. Defense is hustle and determination and execution. And POB is clueless in this area after 5 years of training, post high school with great coaching and teaching. Perk is now a beast with a mean streak.

If a seven footer with obvious physical ability still can't give enough physically and mentally of himself to be even the most rudimentary of defensive players at this point and is still a bad offensive player, then it's time to give up.

POB is playing the same players every day in practice, knows what they are trying to do because he knows what plays they are running. He knows their moves and tendencies and the best way to defend and exploit them. And he can't show enough to the coach of the team to trust him to play meaningful minutes. What can the coach expect out of him but failure if he is doing nothing but failing to prove he is able to produce in practice. Giving him time during meaningful minutes of a team trying to defend a World Championship is not going to happen if he can't show enough against players that he knows what they are doing.

[guava_wrench]

Not sure the age has anything to do with it. Perk has been a much thicker and stronger player than POB even at that young age which allowed him to be a little better immediately. It didn't hurt that he has a mean streak. If we are comparing the two though, when Perk got the minutes that POB has now he put up the same stats. It was only after he played more minutes that he was able to develop and improve his game out there, however only defensively at first. His offense is barely now respectable and many of us thought it would never come. Are you saying that as Perk went from nothing numbers with only potential to a very solid center, it isn't possible for POB to become a solid backup?! He put up solid numbers in college, solid numbers in the D league, so the only numbers you don't like were under Nellie and I don't know that I trust what he got out of POB with his system. The guy is a project who shows a lot more overall skill than Perk did that first year with us. BBD isn't exactly doing much for us. Where is the downside in giving the kid some minutes and seeing if he can develop some confidence?!

And POB is taller, quicker, jumps higher, and seems more coordinated. Should those traits have given him an advantage over Perk?

Seems to me the big difference between the two is drive. Perk is driven. Every preseason it is clear he trained hard the previous offseason.

[EJPLAYA]

Glad to see we have moved beyond the POB is lazy talk. For me the issue is that at this level there is not a lot of latitude in terms of physical characteristics, apptitude or talent. Danny has been trying to patch together a bench on the cheap. To turn on the players because they are not Dwight Howard or KG is absurd. Just because POB is a 7 footer does not make him KG. Yes hard work is important; but POB will never be as athletic as KG or as strong as Perk. Just because he is not getting minutes does not mean he is not working.

As for Docs "POB speed" quote that is an indication that there may be limitations in relation to his wiring or it could also refer to the pace of his development. It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time). Remember Perk was able to develop because he got major minutes early on a mediocre team.

Exactly what do you consider major minutes??

Perk's minutes per game:

2003-04    3.5
2004-05    9.1
2005-06    19.6
2006-07    21.9
2007-08    24.5
2008-09    28.9

Perk didn't even start to play starter type minutes until this year. Posey, a bench player played more minutes per game last year than Perk did. What do you consider major minutes because the starting center on this team wasn't even playing starting minutes last year. And yet every year that Perk played in the league that equates to the same number year that POB played, he has dwarfed his stats except for the first year.

Perk was a fat blob with no, and I mean, no NBA skills whatsoever and he averaged 3.5 minutes, 2.2 points and 1.4 rebounds IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL YEAR AT 18 YEARS OLD. POB in his THIRD PROFESSIONAL YEAR after 2 YEARS OF DIVISION I NCAA BASKETBALL is averaging 2.0 points and 1.5 rebounds, his best career year ever. YES I SAID EVER!!!!

Perk was considered a back up sub at best even last year when he started for the World Champions. That's when after 5 years of post high school organized basketball he was averaging 7 points and 6 rebounds a game. And people considered him a back up at best in the quality of his play.

In POB's fifth season post high school basketball he can't even average what Perk averaged at 18 years old and as fat and out of shape as he as ever been in his NBA career. Come on people. Enough with the potential and he's really just a rookie talk. Just parallel his career and Perks's and then render a decision because compared to Perk, a player that just last year people considered a back up at best, he's is awful. I mean their career's aren't even close to being comparable and they are almost the same age.

POB can't even say that his development looks good as compared to Perk and Perk is in his sixth year and has made POB's playing time and stats appear small by comparison. How sad is that?

Not sure the age has anything to do with it. Perk has been a much thicker and stronger player than POB even at that young age which allowed him to be a little better immediately. It didn't hurt that he has a mean streak. If we are comparing the two though, when Perk got the minutes that POB has now he put up the same stats. It was only after he played more minutes that he was able to develop and improve his game out there, however only defensively at first. His offense is barely now respectable and many of us thought it would never come. Are you saying that as Perk went from nothing numbers with only potential to a very solid center, it isn't possible for POB to become a solid backup?! He put up solid numbers in college, solid numbers in the D league, so the only numbers you don't like were under Nellie and I don't know that I trust what he got out of POB with his system. The guy is a project who shows a lot more overall skill than Perk did that first year with us. BBD isn't exactly doing much for us. Where is the downside in giving the kid some minutes and seeing if he can develop some confidence?!

You admit that where Perk showed he excelled was at the defensive end. EJ, I know you played the game, we all have. Defense is a mind set and even the most mediocre of physical specimens can be good defenders. Defense is hustle and determination and execution. And POB is clueless in this area after 5 years of training, post high school with great coaching and teaching. Perk is now a beast with a mean streak.

If a seven footer with obvious physical ability still can't give enough physically and mentally of himself to be even the most rudimentary of defensive players at this point and is still a bad offensive player, then it's time to give up.

POB is playing the same players every day in practice, knows what they are trying to do because he knows what plays they are running. He knows their moves and tendencies and the best way to defend and exploit them. And he can't show enough to the coach of the team to trust him to play meaningful minutes. What can the coach expect out of him but failure if he is doing nothing but failing to prove he is able to produce in practice. Giving him time during meaningful minutes of a team trying to defend a World Championship is not going to happen if he can't show enough against players that he knows what they are doing.

I agree 100% on the defensive front, however I would argue that he DOES show effort defensively. He is an aggressive shot blocker. He is a very good rebounder. He makes an attempt to rotate defensively but you have to remember this is a guy who gets no game time run, gets almost no practice time (They haven't hardly had more than a couple practices in a month per Gorman or Tommy), and is trying to learn a new system at the same time that is much more difficult than what they were running in Nellie ball.

The other night someone pushed the ball up the floor and even though there was someone back all ready I saw POB pick up his pace to try and get back. I know that was a little thing, but the ball was ahead of him up the floor. If he was completely lazy he wouldn't have done that. I think the guy needs to be more aggressive, but you can't teach a guy to have Perk's mean streak. I have a son who has it, and a son who doesn't. No matter what I say he plays the game with a big grin on his face and is more interested in being out there with the guys having fun than putting it to someone.  POB will never have Perk or KG's disposition.

He does though IMO possess something that BBD never will and that is the size to play the center position. BBD CAN NOT and will NEVER be able to score around the basket in this league. He is too small. He will never be a good rebounder. He is a hustler but has the jump of Antoine Walker. I am pretty convinced within 15 games POB would be giving you more OVERALL results than BBD if he was given his minutes. BBD needs to be the third player behind Powe, or traded away with TA for a big or larger wing.

[moiso]

I think if POB could limit his mistakes and improve his defensive rotations enough to earn playing time, he would be far more of an impact player than Big Baby.  He would rebound more, score more, and obviously block more shots.