Poll

Who’s your foundation piece; Duncan or Garnett?

Tim Duncan
13 (52%)
Kevin Garnett
12 (48%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: The Big Fundamental or Ticket  (Read 3387 times)

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Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2023, 11:34:13 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Duncan and it’s not close.

Personally, I think KG is vastly over rated when it comes to the greatest Power Fowards of all time conversations. Duncan, Malone, Nowitzki, and Barkley are all much better, imo.
This is the complete opposite of what my take is. KG is the most underrated player of the last 25 years, and is every bit as good as Duncan & Malone, and significantly better than Dirk or Chuck.

This is an interesting take. Care to elaborate?
In terms of being underrated, I think there's a whole essay that could be written (and has by people like Thinking Basketball). I think he was as good a defender as any player in the modern era, that I think gets a bit overlooked because his defensive counting stats weren't as crazy as some other defensive stalwarts like Hakeem, Dikembe or Ben Wallace. However, I think his impact on that end was just as significant as any player since Bill Russell. He had the size to protect the interior as well as the agility to defend the perimeter, all whilst using his IQ to cover every aspect of that half of the floor. Even as broken down old man in his final season, when he was on the floor Minny had the =2nd best defence in the competition vs the 28th when he was off it. His awareness, ball tracking, and ability to act upon that freakish awareness with his physical tools made him one of the most impactful defensive forces ever.

I think his offence is often overlooked too because of how much help he did not have. He is the ultimate example of an offensive arsenal that lifts those around him. Elite passing, super active, and wanted to get others going. However, he gets criticised for that because the others he was lifting up were Latrell Sprewell and Sam Cassell (who was an All-Star alongside KG) in the twilights of their careers.

I think if he had been put in the position of Duncan or Malone (good to elite supporting casts, good to elite coaching, stability, lack of corruption, etc.) I think he would have won multiple MVPs and multiple championships (definitely in San Antonio). Even if he'd been drafted to Dallas and been given the support Dirk did, his career would have been completely different. I think his prime gets overlooked because people forget how much of a complete and utter basket-case Minny was during KG's time there.

There's more to be said, but I am sadly lacking for time and eloquence at the moment
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2023, 11:35:36 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2023, 12:38:51 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

I’m not sure about defense.  Duncan was better against centers and big power forwards, and was a better rim defender.  KG was better on the perimeter. Both anchored some of the best defensive teams of this era.

I’d call it a wash.


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Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2023, 12:44:18 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2023, 12:53:06 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2023, 01:28:43 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Voted KG because of his loyalty to the Celtics, but it’s incredibly close between the two.

I still think Malone is better than both, though. Dude dominated on both ends in the hand-checking era. Had Malone been drafted at age 18, LeBron would not be surpassing the all-time points leader this season. Had Malone been drafted at age 18 in 2003, LeBron would never be the all-time points leader. What’s perhaps the most impressive about Malone is that nobody, with the possible exception of John Stockton, took better care of their body. The Mailman barely missed a single game until he was over age 40. Impressive as all heck.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 01:35:21 AM by GreenlyGreeny »

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2023, 01:50:36 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2023, 03:56:08 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.

and Sean Elliot, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2023, 09:14:30 AM »

Offline moiso

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.
and wasn't as clutch.

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2023, 12:26:40 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.
KG kept driving his best teammates away and no free agent ever wanted to play with him.  A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1.  He couldn't lead an offense. The most success he had was when he took more of a complimentary role and he wasn't willing to do that until he was on the downside of his career.  That is why this is an easy choice. Duncan all day every single day without even a flicker of doubt.
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Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2023, 01:32:46 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.
KG kept driving his best teammates away and no free agent ever wanted to play with him.  A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1.  He couldn't lead an offense. The most success he had was when he took more of a complimentary role and he wasn't willing to do that until he was on the downside of his career.  That is why this is an easy choice. Duncan all day every single day without even a flicker of doubt.

So it was actually KG holding the team back? It wasn’t the fact that the franchise was poorly managed and located in Minnesota. I’ve never heard anyone else say that his personality was driving his teammates away and that no other FA’s wanted to play with him. Do you have a link to a story or something?
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2023, 01:37:39 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.
KG kept driving his best teammates away and no free agent ever wanted to play with him.  A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1.  He couldn't lead an offense. The most success he had was when he took more of a complimentary role and he wasn't willing to do that until he was on the downside of his career.  That is why this is an easy choice. Duncan all day every single day without even a flicker of doubt.

So it was actually KG holding the team back? It wasn’t the fact that the franchise was poorly managed and located in Minnesota. I’ve never heard anyone else say that his personality was driving his teammates away and that no other FA’s wanted to play with him. Do you have a link to a story or something?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14172961/the-cruel-tutelage-kevin-garnett?platform=amp

https://fadeawayworld.net/.amp/nba-media/espns-columnist-jackie-macmullan-kevin-garnetts-a-bully-and-hell-bully-you-and-hes-waiting-for-you-to-bully-him-back



I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2023, 01:57:36 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.
KG kept driving his best teammates away and no free agent ever wanted to play with him.  A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1.  He couldn't lead an offense. The most success he had was when he took more of a complimentary role and he wasn't willing to do that until he was on the downside of his career.  That is why this is an easy choice. Duncan all day every single day without even a flicker of doubt.

So it was actually KG holding the team back? It wasn’t the fact that the franchise was poorly managed and located in Minnesota. I’ve never heard anyone else say that his personality was driving his teammates away and that no other FA’s wanted to play with him. Do you have a link to a story or something?

Yeah, it’s certainly just a coincidence that the Wolves made the playoffs in 8 of KG’s 12 seasons there, and only 2 times in the franchise’s other 21 seasons.  The structure of that organization was superb, and it was KG holding them back.   ::)

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2023, 02:19:12 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.
KG kept driving his best teammates away and no free agent ever wanted to play with him.  A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1.  He couldn't lead an offense. The most success he had was when he took more of a complimentary role and he wasn't willing to do that until he was on the downside of his career.  That is why this is an easy choice. Duncan all day every single day without even a flicker of doubt.

So it was actually KG holding the team back? It wasn’t the fact that the franchise was poorly managed and located in Minnesota. I’ve never heard anyone else say that his personality was driving his teammates away and that no other FA’s wanted to play with him. Do you have a link to a story or something?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14172961/the-cruel-tutelage-kevin-garnett?platform=amp

https://fadeawayworld.net/.amp/nba-media/espns-columnist-jackie-macmullan-kevin-garnetts-a-bully-and-hell-bully-you-and-hes-waiting-for-you-to-bully-him-back

Yeah, I’m not buying that many players thought his personality was an issue. Jackie Mac doesn’t like him, that’s fine. The second link is just a regurgitation of the first. KG was runner up for the teammate of the year award, which is voted on by players, not a columnist. That’s more telling, IMO.

https://www.nba.com/timberwolves/kg-voted-second-best-teammate-nba
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The Big Fundamental or Ticket
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2023, 03:27:09 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.
Except for passing and defence, yes

Feel like KG was more versatile offensively. Also a better athlete, had better handles, and ran the floor like a gazelle.

…  but was less productive, less efficient, and didn’t win as much.

I mean, Garnett didn’t have Pop coaching him for 20 years or much talent around him until he came to Boston. Who was KG’s best teammate in Minnesota, Sam Cassell? Duncan was playing with David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard.
KG kept driving his best teammates away and no free agent ever wanted to play with him.  A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1.  He couldn't lead an offense. The most success he had was when he took more of a complimentary role and he wasn't willing to do that until he was on the downside of his career.  That is why this is an easy choice. Duncan all day every single day without even a flicker of doubt.

So it was actually KG holding the team back? It wasn’t the fact that the franchise was poorly managed and located in Minnesota. I’ve never heard anyone else say that his personality was driving his teammates away and that no other FA’s wanted to play with him. Do you have a link to a story or something?
Moranis’ takes on KG are incredibly irrational, there’s no point arguing it with him
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)