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Brady or Belichick?

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Belichick
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Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2021, 05:50:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I look at championships as players get 80%, 20% management staff.

QB is do or die for teams. You need an crazy good team to win with a bad QB. I don't know how much percent a single QB gets maybe 30% max?

Headcoach vs assistant coaches how much credit do I give to the Head maybe 10%. Bill is also a gm to some degree so extra 4%.

So depending on year TB is around 20%-30%, Bill is 10%-15%.

So I give more credit to TB.

If Bill is both coach & GM, then he deserves a helluva lot more than 10-15%.  Especially building teams under salary cap restrictions, doing the draft work,  and constructing two almost completely different dynastic teams.
The issue is the first dynasty he was less gm and less hands in everything. Brady was also less of a QB first two chips. There was a ton of carry over. So both played lesser value roles to the wins.

Second run TB was clearly the best player in the game and Bill I felt was slipping with a lot of hit and miss picks and signings.

How so?  He & Pioli basically had to get out of the salary hell that Grier had gotten the Pats in.  He won a Super Bowl by bargain shopping personnel.  He also drafted two rookies who played key roles in that championship in Seymour & Light.

Also, who besides Brady & Wilfork was carried over btw the SB49 and SB49 teams?  There are almost two complete different identities between those two teams.
No the Parcels carry over to when Bill took over. And the in coaching his assistant coaches setup a lot of the offense and special teams. Bill got more hands on when they left. Same with GM work. When the other guys left he then got more involved. He used to rely on others more.
You're talking about the Patriots and Bill Belichick? Because I sure do not recall anything you are saying as ever happening. I mean, you do realize Pete Carroll was the head coach in New England before Belichick was hired. There were no Parcell leftovers other than Dante Scarnechhia.

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2021, 05:51:24 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Bill won 2 Super Bowls as the Giants defensive coordinator back in the 80's. There is no "need" for him to win another to cement any legacy. That legacy is cemented in place and he will be the greatest football coach ever, when it's all said and done.

That's not to say, with his competitive fire he doesn't want to win more titles, but I am not sure it's driven by some need to prove he was more instrumental in the Pats' success than Tom Brady.

As for who was more instrumental to the Pats' success, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. I think it was both of them, regardless of what Tom does in Tampa.



 Oh no. Bill took last year's title from Brady SUPER personal.  As evidence by spending a quarter billion dollars on players that probably aren't worth the money.

 Very uncharacteristic from Bill, and the most money ever spent in free agency.

 Tom made his point last year.  I can do this GM thing better than you Bill, and so far he's right.
Bill spent that money because when the new TV deal kicks in all those contracts will look small.
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Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2021, 05:55:57 PM »

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I look at championships as players get 80%, 20% management staff.

QB is do or die for teams. You need an crazy good team to win with a bad QB. I don't know how much percent a single QB gets maybe 30% max?

Headcoach vs assistant coaches how much credit do I give to the Head maybe 10%. Bill is also a gm to some degree so extra 4%.

So depending on year TB is around 20%-30%, Bill is 10%-15%.

So I give more credit to TB.

If Bill is both coach & GM, then he deserves a helluva lot more than 10-15%.  Especially building teams under salary cap restrictions, doing the draft work,  and constructing two almost completely different dynastic teams.
The issue is the first dynasty he was less gm and less hands in everything. Brady was also less of a QB first two chips. There was a ton of carry over. So both played lesser value roles to the wins.

Second run TB was clearly the best player in the game and Bill I felt was slipping with a lot of hit and miss picks and signings.

How so?  He & Pioli basically had to get out of the salary hell that Grier had gotten the Pats in.  He won a Super Bowl by bargain shopping personnel.  He also drafted two rookies who played key roles in that championship in Seymour & Light.

Also, who besides Brady & Wilfork was carried over btw the SB49 and SB49 teams?  There are almost two complete different identities between those two teams.
No the Parcels carry over to when Bill took over. And the in coaching his assistant coaches setup a lot of the offense and special teams. Bill got more hands on when they left. Same with GM work. When the other guys left he then got more involved. He used to rely on others more.
You're talking about the Patriots and Bill Belichick? Because I sure do not recall anything you are saying as ever happening. I mean, you do realize Pete Carroll was the head coach in New England before Belichick was hired. There were no Parcell leftovers other than Dante Scarnechhia.

To be fair, there were some players, though.  Bledsoe, Milloy, Bruschi, McGinest, Vinatieri, Brown, Law.


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Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2021, 05:58:45 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I look at championships as players get 80%, 20% management staff.

QB is do or die for teams. You need an crazy good team to win with a bad QB. I don't know how much percent a single QB gets maybe 30% max?

Headcoach vs assistant coaches how much credit do I give to the Head maybe 10%. Bill is also a gm to some degree so extra 4%.

So depending on year TB is around 20%-30%, Bill is 10%-15%.

So I give more credit to TB.

If Bill is both coach & GM, then he deserves a helluva lot more than 10-15%.  Especially building teams under salary cap restrictions, doing the draft work,  and constructing two almost completely different dynastic teams.
The issue is the first dynasty he was less gm and less hands in everything. Brady was also less of a QB first two chips. There was a ton of carry over. So both played lesser value roles to the wins.

Second run TB was clearly the best player in the game and Bill I felt was slipping with a lot of hit and miss picks and signings.

How so?  He & Pioli basically had to get out of the salary hell that Grier had gotten the Pats in.  He won a Super Bowl by bargain shopping personnel.  He also drafted two rookies who played key roles in that championship in Seymour & Light.

Also, who besides Brady & Wilfork was carried over btw the SB49 and SB49 teams?  There are almost two complete different identities between those two teams.
No the Parcels carry over to when Bill took over. And the in coaching his assistant coaches setup a lot of the offense and special teams. Bill got more hands on when they left. Same with GM work. When the other guys left he then got more involved. He used to rely on others more.
You're talking about the Patriots and Bill Belichick? Because I sure do not recall anything you are saying as ever happening. I mean, you do realize Pete Carroll was the head coach in New England before Belichick was hired. There were no Parcell leftovers other than Dante Scarnechhia.
You need to review Parcells transactions with the Pats

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2021, 05:58:57 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Bill won 2 Super Bowls as the Giants defensive coordinator back in the 80's. There is no "need" for him to win another to cement any legacy. That legacy is cemented in place and he will be the greatest football coach ever, when it's all said and done.

That's not to say, with his competitive fire he doesn't want to win more titles, but I am not sure it's driven by some need to prove he was more instrumental in the Pats' success than Tom Brady.

As for who was more instrumental to the Pats' success, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. I think it was both of them, regardless of what Tom does in Tampa.
I agree with this. Brady winning without Belichik last season would seem to suggest he was capable of winning without him BUT are we sure that Tom Brady, the 6th round pick who was constantly being accused of being a "system QB" and "just a game manager" for the first 6 years of his career would have developed into the winner that he did with a different coach?

Beats me, but I think it's a question worth asking.

BINGO, Brady will always have some Belichik in him. He didn’t shed all the knowledge he acquired from Belichik just be moving south.

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2021, 11:06:31 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I think it’s laughable that some think that Brady wouldn’t be the competitor that he is if Bill wasn’t his coach.That’s like saying Jordan wouldn’t have been a great competitor without Phil. Maybe Tom doesn’t win 6 rings without Bill, but I believe he would have gotten 5 on another team with a good coach like an Andy Reid or a Sean Peyton. Put Brady on the Saints, Chiefs, Rams, Steelers, Bills, 49ers this year and that team immediately becomes the favorite to win the SB. Very first year on Tampa, with no training camp, no preseason games and he wins it all.

I think Bill is the greatest defensive coach of all time, but there Are two sides of the field. He’s done a very good job drafting defensive players, but overall has been bad in terms of drafting offensive players. McDaniels has been the OC for all but one SB win and I feel like people discount Josh’s role in running the offense over the years. I believe Brady had a far larger role in the Patriots success and feel as though Belichick’s legacy will be diminished if he is unable to win 1 Super Bowl without having the greatest quarterback of all time on his team.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 11:41:22 PM by Goldstar88 »
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Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2021, 03:16:12 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Bill won 2 Super Bowls as the Giants defensive coordinator back in the 80's. There is no "need" for him to win another to cement any legacy. That legacy is cemented in place and he will be the greatest football coach ever, when it's all said and done.

That's not to say, with his competitive fire he doesn't want to win more titles, but I am not sure it's driven by some need to prove he was more instrumental in the Pats' success than Tom Brady.

As for who was more instrumental to the Pats' success, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. I think it was both of them, regardless of what Tom does in Tampa.



 Oh no. Bill took last year's title from Brady SUPER personal.  As evidence by spending a quarter billion dollars on players that probably aren't worth the money.

 Very uncharacteristic from Bill, and the most money ever spent in free agency.

 Tom made his point last year.  I can do this GM thing better than you Bill, and so far he's right.
Bill spent that money because when the new TV deal kicks in all those contracts will look small.


 Nope. He spent all that money because his soul was hurt watching Tom win it all in year one.

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2021, 03:43:14 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Bill won 2 Super Bowls as the Giants defensive coordinator back in the 80's. There is no "need" for him to win another to cement any legacy. That legacy is cemented in place and he will be the greatest football coach ever, when it's all said and done.

That's not to say, with his competitive fire he doesn't want to win more titles, but I am not sure it's driven by some need to prove he was more instrumental in the Pats' success than Tom Brady.

As for who was more instrumental to the Pats' success, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. I think it was both of them, regardless of what Tom does in Tampa.



 Oh no. Bill took last year's title from Brady SUPER personal.  As evidence by spending a quarter billion dollars on players that probably aren't worth the money.

 Very uncharacteristic from Bill, and the most money ever spent in free agency.

 Tom made his point last year.  I can do this GM thing better than you Bill, and so far he's right.
Bill spent that money because when the new TV deal kicks in all those contracts will look small.


 Nope. He spent all that money because his soul was hurt watching Tom win it all in year one.
Sigh. No, he didn't. In a couple of years these deals will be underpays. He was also getting some pretty good players like Henry, Judon and Smith. Not like he was adding speculative guys or bums.
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Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2021, 08:03:06 AM »

Offline boscel33

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In the NFL, I believe it's team above single players.  Example, Dan Marino who was an all time great, never won a SB because they never put the team around him.  I'm going BB here, because it's always been "what's best for the Pats" not a single player.
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Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2021, 02:49:55 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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In the NFL, I believe it's team above single players.  Example, Dan Marino who was an all time great, never won a SB because they never put the team around him.  I'm going BB here, because it's always been "what's best for the Pats" not a single player.

So if you were starting a team and you had to chose between Belichick and Brady, you’d take Bill. Do you think Dan Marino would have won 6 SB’s if he was in Brady’s situation?
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2021, 03:15:58 PM »

Offline Moranis

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You see the impact of a quarterback time and time again in the NFL.  Obviously we know what happened in Tampa and New England last year, but they are far from the only example. 

Look at the Colts.  Years of winning 10+ games, Manning gets hurt they go 2-14, they draft Andrew Luck and then immediately go back to winning 10+ games. 

Broncos were 8-8 with Tebow, sign a much older coming off an injury Manning and go 13-3.  Same coach, basically the same core, only major difference getting Manning.

Rams go from crappy, sign Warner, go 13-3 and win the Superbowl. 

I mean heck just look at the Niners record when Jimmy G plays vs. when he is out since he joined them.  Astronomical difference. 

I agree with the idea that in general an individual football player doesn't make that much difference, EXCEPT the QB.  The QB is the most important position in all of sports.  It is almost impossible to win at a high level with even a mediocre QB, let alone a bad one, and that just isn't true of any other position or frankly coach.  A coach isn't winning without a top tier QB, except in uber-rare circumstances (there are obvious exceptions).
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Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2021, 03:52:24 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Bill won 2 Super Bowls as the Giants defensive coordinator back in the 80's. There is no "need" for him to win another to cement any legacy. That legacy is cemented in place and he will be the greatest football coach ever, when it's all said and done.

That's not to say, with his competitive fire he doesn't want to win more titles, but I am not sure it's driven by some need to prove he was more instrumental in the Pats' success than Tom Brady.

As for who was more instrumental to the Pats' success, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. I think it was both of them, regardless of what Tom does in Tampa.



 Oh no. Bill took last year's title from Brady SUPER personal.  As evidence by spending a quarter billion dollars on players that probably aren't worth the money.

 Very uncharacteristic from Bill, and the most money ever spent in free agency.

 Tom made his point last year.  I can do this GM thing better than you Bill, and so far he's right.
Bill spent that money because when the new TV deal kicks in all those contracts will look small.


 Nope. He spent all that money because his soul was hurt watching Tom win it all in year one.
Sigh. No, he didn't. In a couple of years these deals will be underpays. He was also getting some pretty good players like Henry, Judon and Smith. Not like he was adding speculative guys or bums.


 In a couple of years these guys will be hurt or gone. He did not get any underpays at all. Judon is good but getting old.

 Henry won't last here just my opinion and he gets banged up a lot. I do like Smith a lot and hope he stays longterm.

 However this in the Not For Long league.

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2021, 06:08:57 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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In the NFL, I believe it's team above single players.  Example, Dan Marino who was an all time great, never won a SB because they never put the team around him.  I'm going BB here, because it's always been "what's best for the Pats" not a single player.

So if you were starting a team and you had to chose between Belichick and Brady, you’d take Bill. Do you think Dan Marino would have won 6 SB’s if he was in Brady’s situation?

Lots of variables.  Luck, weak division, 1st round byes, supporting cast, Dante Scarneccia, and... having the combination of all-time great QB with all-time great coach.
 
I think if you replaced Brady with Marino, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees… every one of them would have more rings.

It may be that weak division was the most impactful variable when it came to getting to 9 SBs. 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 06:24:27 PM by Neurotic Guy »

Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2021, 07:21:45 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I think it’s laughable that some think that Brady wouldn’t be the competitor that he is if Bill wasn’t his coach.That’s like saying Jordan wouldn’t have been a great competitor without Phil. Maybe Tom doesn’t win 6 rings without Bill, but I believe he would have gotten 5 on another team with a good coach like an Andy Reid or a Sean Peyton. Put Brady on the Saints, Chiefs, Rams, Steelers, Bills, 49ers this year and that team immediately becomes the favorite to win the SB. Very first year on Tampa, with no training camp, no preseason games and he wins it all.

I think Bill is the greatest defensive coach of all time, but there Are two sides of the field. He’s done a very good job drafting defensive players, but overall has been bad in terms of drafting offensive players. McDaniels has been the OC for all but one SB win and I feel like people discount Josh’s role in running the offense over the years. I believe Brady had a far larger role in the Patriots success and feel as though Belichick’s legacy will be diminished if he is unable to win 1 Super Bowl without having the greatest quarterback of all time on his team.
That's a terrible analogy. Jordan was a top 3 pick and runaway rookie of the year, all star in his first season. Jordan was always going to be an all-time great no matter what. Brady's path was completely different.

I think what you say about Belichick being a defensive coach is a good point. Maybe Belichick coaching some great defenses gave Brady opportunities to learn on the biggest stages he might not have had under other coaches. Maybe because Belichick was more defensive minded he let Brady have the reigns on offense in ways another coach wouldn't have allowed.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady, he's the GOAT. That discussion is put to bed. My question (and it is a question, not a statement) is about the conditions that got him to where he is now. He was never a forgone conclusion like a Jordan or a Peyton Manning. It's completely fair to ask what role Bill had in shaping Brady.
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Re: Brady or Belichick
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2021, 08:56:46 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I think it’s laughable that some think that Brady wouldn’t be the competitor that he is if Bill wasn’t his coach.That’s like saying Jordan wouldn’t have been a great competitor without Phil. Maybe Tom doesn’t win 6 rings without Bill, but I believe he would have gotten 5 on another team with a good coach like an Andy Reid or a Sean Peyton. Put Brady on the Saints, Chiefs, Rams, Steelers, Bills, 49ers this year and that team immediately becomes the favorite to win the SB. Very first year on Tampa, with no training camp, no preseason games and he wins it all.

I think Bill is the greatest defensive coach of all time, but there Are two sides of the field. He’s done a very good job drafting defensive players, but overall has been bad in terms of drafting offensive players. McDaniels has been the OC for all but one SB win and I feel like people discount Josh’s role in running the offense over the years. I believe Brady had a far larger role in the Patriots success and feel as though Belichick’s legacy will be diminished if he is unable to win 1 Super Bowl without having the greatest quarterback of all time on his team.
That's a terrible analogy. Jordan was a top 3 pick and runaway rookie of the year, all star in his first season. Jordan was always going to be an all-time great no matter what. Brady's path was completely different.

I think what you say about Belichick being a defensive coach is a good point. Maybe Belichick coaching some great defenses gave Brady opportunities to learn on the biggest stages he might not have had under other coaches. Maybe because Belichick was more defensive minded he let Brady have the reigns on offense in ways another coach wouldn't have allowed.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady, he's the GOAT. That discussion is put to bed. My question (and it is a question, not a statement) is about the conditions that got him to where he is now. He was never a forgone conclusion like a Jordan or a Peyton Manning. It's completely fair to ask what role Bill had in shaping Brady.

I’m not comparing Brady’s career or journey to Jordan’s. I’m just talking about them as fierce competitors. You can’t teach competitiveness. You can’t coach it. It’s either part of your DNA or it’s not. Whether Phil, Pat, or Pop coached Jordan, he would still have been a fierce competitor. Just like Brady would have been if his coach was Payton, Reid, Parcells.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 09:09:06 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.