Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 601219 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #570 on: January 23, 2015, 08:31:52 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Ugh, I hate when people are insinuating racism when they just plain don't like the work that someone has done

Because 'urban lingo' is used so often to describe the vernacular of white people.  ::)

You seem to be equating the use of "urban" with racism, and I think that's unfair.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #571 on: January 23, 2015, 08:56:10 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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ESPN is really dumb. They start sportscenter saying someone stole 2 lbs of air from the football. That's your lead anchor ESPN, good to know they know what they are talking about ........

The sad thing is that it seems as if ESPN started going south as far as Sports Journalism - as soon as Stuart Scott started getting sick and lessening his appearances.

I remember the days when he and Rich Eisen just reported on Sports and facts...not controversy and rumors. Those days are long gone :(

Sure - Mr. Scott was very dramatic...lively, whatever. But it just seemed to me he had a lot of credence to his reporting.

Funny you should mention Scott, because I was just thinking about him. His early death was unfortunate, but I never liked his anchoring style—over the top, and I always felt that he was trying to be funny (like many earlier SC anchors such as Kilborn) but just wasn't.

I remember Stuart as being as trailblazer...he paved the way for the Shaq's, Charles, etc - to be comfortable on TV speaking the way they wanted. Stuart was bold...he was comfortable in his own skin back during a time in TV when that wasn't looked at fondly.

And he didn't do The Decision.

And I just don't remember him in the middle of mess like DeflateGate and others, lol.

As bold as his style was, he always had a sense of realness to it - unlike the stuff we're seeing with DeflateGate.

He definitely wasn't a sensationalist—as you said, he wasn't part of the The Decision or any other junk like that. I just didn't think he was funny.

He was a complete hack, just like every other anchor on ESPN. They try to be funny , but come off as phony morons .

wow.. just wow...

what's to wow? It's just my opinion . Does everyone need to think Scott was great ? Not happy he died or anything , but I wasn't a fan.

Yeah, I always thought that he was an obnoxious prick who hated the Celtics (even more so than most of the other horrible anchors at espn, imo).  I couldn't stand him.  Now, admittedly, I hit mute every time I saw him talking on TV, so I don't know what this 'urban lingo' was, lol, never mind the eye brow thing, but why is a guy celebrated for making 'booyah' and 'have some' catchphrases?  I don't know anything about the guy as a person, but as a 'reporter,' I found him to be quite the moron.  The same goes for John Buccigross, with his stupid impression of Bob Sheppard introducing Derek Jeter at Yankee Stadium, and Neil Everett.  The latter even said, on a live broadcast after we had just 'lost' game 2 of the 2012 ecf against the Heat, that Pierce, who had fouled out, had left the bench to 'go look for a/his wheelchair,' iirc. :o  Yeah, I knew that they hated us, but that's just insulting, and I haven't missed espn one bit since I stopped watching said network 2-3 years ago.  They're a joke.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #572 on: January 23, 2015, 10:17:52 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I want to chime in on some of the technical talk.  I am an engineer with an advanced degree and my work involves applications of the ideal gas laws and law of partial pressures (both fundamental building blocks of applied thermodynamics).  The previous analyses are correct based on my understanding but there is a little more nuance that you can consider.

What the analysis above focused on is the change in pressure inside the ball when there is a change in the temperature outside the ball.  Absolutely correct that the air inside will achieve thermal equilibrium with the ambient temperature outside the ball and the change in pressure will be roughly proportional to the change in temperature just how described (I say roughly because no real gas will behave exactly as an ideal gas but in this case, close enough for approximations).

It is also possible to manipulate the pressure inside the ball by taking advantage of the fact that the temperature of a gas will increase with an increase in pressure.  When a ball is pumped up (pressure increased) that action will immediately increase the temperature according to the same ratios that the pressure changes as a result of temperature change.

So immediately after a ball is pumped up to say 12.5 psig (the g referring to gage pressure), the air inside the ball will be hotter than the ambient air (ambient air is at a pressure of 0 psig so it increases in temperature when squeezed to 12.5 psig and will increase the temperature of the air in the ball when mixed with whatever air is already in the ball and at ambient temperature).  If the ref checked the pressure shortly after that (before it cooled), the pressure would be fine but the temperature inside the ball would be still warmer (maybe 10F warmer than ambient, depending on how much air was added).  Then when taken outside, the pressure would reduce even further than predicted above.

Now I recognize that this does not explain why the Pats balls were soft and the Colts balls were not but it illustrates how a knowledgeable and devious person could manipulate the pressure in the balls without tampering with the balls after the refs inspected them.

One other point, someone said that moisture could condense out and impact pressure.  This is true but the partial pressure of the water in the air at 70F say 30% RH is only about 0.25 psia.  This is the total amount that the partial pressure of the water vapor contributes to the total pressure of 14.7 psia of the air-water mixture (atmospheric pressure).  So even if half the water condensed out, it would make only a miniscule of difference per Dalton’s Law of Partial Pressures.

Wow, Celtics and Thermodynamics talk in the same place, a little slice of heaven for me.  As for my theory of what really went on?, I think the trainers and maybe others figured out a way to manipulate the pressure in the balls without actually "tampering" with them after the refs inspected them.  So is this breaking any rules, maybe not technically (good luck to the NFL trying to prove it anyway) but certainly it is circumventing the intent of the rules.


Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #573 on: January 23, 2015, 10:24:15 PM »

Offline Cman

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As for my theory of what really went on?, I think the trainers and maybe others figured out a way to manipulate the pressure in the balls without actually "tampering" with them after the refs inspected them.  So is this breaking any rules, maybe not technically (good luck to the NFL trying to prove it anyway) but certainly it is circumventing the intent of the rules.

TP for the great science. I think your version quoted above as a possible explanation is about right. It is the one that seems the most likely -- certainly much more likely than a ball boy frantically sticking a pin in each ball while in the elevator.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #574 on: January 23, 2015, 10:35:41 PM »

Offline Redz

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I just made this one to express my feelings about the state of the NFL.  I just want to enjoy the flippin' games without feeling guilty. 

Yup

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #575 on: January 23, 2015, 10:43:11 PM »

Offline Cman

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As for my theory of what really went on?, I think the trainers and maybe others figured out a way to manipulate the pressure in the balls without actually "tampering" with them after the refs inspected them.  So is this breaking any rules, maybe not technically (good luck to the NFL trying to prove it anyway) but certainly it is circumventing the intent of the rules.

TP for the great science. I think your version quoted above as a possible explanation is about right. It is the one that seems the most likely -- certainly much more likely than a ball boy frantically sticking a pin in each ball while in the elevator.

Also, the beauty of this , if true, is that the media went to great pains to point out that while all QBs have their strange rituals with balls prior to the game , including wire brushes, oil, water, blow driers etc, it's fine. What's not fine is manipulating the balls after the fact.

What Eli does to his footballs is okay because it's prior to measurement, right? So, whatever is done to footballs prior to measurement is okay, right?
Celtics fan for life.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #576 on: January 23, 2015, 10:52:47 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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As for my theory of what really went on?, I think the trainers and maybe others figured out a way to manipulate the pressure in the balls without actually "tampering" with them after the refs inspected them.  So is this breaking any rules, maybe not technically (good luck to the NFL trying to prove it anyway) but certainly it is circumventing the intent of the rules.

TP for the great science. I think your version quoted above as a possible explanation is about right. It is the one that seems the most likely -- certainly much more likely than a ball boy frantically sticking a pin in each ball while in the elevator.

Also, the beauty of this , if true, is that the media went to great pains to point out that while all QBs have their strange rituals with balls prior to the game , including wire brushes, oil, water, blow driers etc, it's fine. What's not fine is manipulating the balls after the fact.

What Eli does to his footballs is okay because it's prior to measurement, right? So, whatever is done to footballs prior to measurement is okay, right?

Exactly.  What I described above is something anyone with a basic understanding of Thermo could figure out.  You could even pump up the balls right in front of the Refs (leaving them a little hot) and they wouldn't even suspect that there was any manipulation going on.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #577 on: January 24, 2015, 11:26:18 AM »

Offline footey

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I want to chime in on some of the technical talk.  I am an engineer with an advanced degree and my work involves applications of the ideal gas laws and law of partial pressures (both fundamental building blocks of applied thermodynamics).  The previous analyses are correct based on my understanding but there is a little more nuance that you can consider.

What the analysis above focused on is the change in pressure inside the ball when there is a change in the temperature outside the ball.  Absolutely correct that the air inside will achieve thermal equilibrium with the ambient temperature outside the ball and the change in pressure will be roughly proportional to the change in temperature just how described (I say roughly because no real gas will behave exactly as an ideal gas but in this case, close enough for approximations).

It is also possible to manipulate the pressure inside the ball by taking advantage of the fact that the temperature of a gas will increase with an increase in pressure.  When a ball is pumped up (pressure increased) that action will immediately increase the temperature according to the same ratios that the pressure changes as a result of temperature change.

So immediately after a ball is pumped up to say 12.5 psig (the g referring to gage pressure), the air inside the ball will be hotter than the ambient air (ambient air is at a pressure of 0 psig so it increases in temperature when squeezed to 12.5 psig and will increase the temperature of the air in the ball when mixed with whatever air is already in the ball and at ambient temperature).  If the ref checked the pressure shortly after that (before it cooled), the pressure would be fine but the temperature inside the ball would be still warmer (maybe 10F warmer than ambient, depending on how much air was added).  Then when taken outside, the pressure would reduce even further than predicted above.

Now I recognize that this does not explain why the Pats balls were soft and the Colts balls were not but it illustrates how a knowledgeable and devious person could manipulate the pressure in the balls without tampering with the balls after the refs inspected them.

One other point, someone said that moisture could condense out and impact pressure.  This is true but the partial pressure of the water in the air at 70F say 30% RH is only about 0.25 psia.  This is the total amount that the partial pressure of the water vapor contributes to the total pressure of 14.7 psia of the air-water mixture (atmospheric pressure).  So even if half the water condensed out, it would make only a miniscule of difference per Dalton’s Law of Partial Pressures.

Wow, Celtics and Thermodynamics talk in the same place, a little slice of heaven for me.  As for my theory of what really went on?, I think the trainers and maybe others figured out a way to manipulate the pressure in the balls without actually "tampering" with them after the refs inspected them.  So is this breaking any rules, maybe not technically (good luck to the NFL trying to prove it anyway) but certainly it is circumventing the intent of the rules.

Thanks, Vermont Celtic.  I love reading about this stuff.

The discrepancy in ball pressure between the Colt footballs and the Pats footballs will have to await further factual information.  For example, is it not conceivable that Tom Brady selected balls at the low end of acceptable range (12.5) while Luck selected balls in the higher end (13.5), which could go toward explaining why the tested Pats balls fell below but the Colt footballs stayed within range.  Did the Colt balls continue to test out at 13.5 during the game?  Or closer to 12.5?  And what range did the Pats' footballs test at during the game?  Did 11 of the 12 balls test out at 10.5, which is what Chris Mortensen reported, or did it range from just under 12.5 to 10.5?  I have heard there are conflicting reports on this. Sure wish the NFL would clarify this point.

Also just learned that the initial report from an Indy reporter, that this all got triggered by an interception in the 2nd quarter, in which the incriminating ball was turned over, is incorrect.  Reports now state that the corrected balls were switched into the game BEFORE the interception.  This does not affect the scientific analysis you astutely provided. But it does underscore how much misinformation and speculation is floating around.

I think the League is correct to take their time to analyze all the facts before they make any final determination, and I certainly hope that the Pats are exonerated.  If it means letting the Patriots twist in the wind throughout the build up to the Super Bowl, well, I think that is okay too, kind of an additional payback on behalf of the disgruntled masses for the perception that Spygate was inadequately punished back in '07.  The great irony, of course, could be if the accusations serve to motivate the team into even higher levels of performance, not at all outside the realm of possibility.  And let's face it: if the Pats were to trounce the Seahawks, the mass of skeptics will be lining up the excuses as to how it could have happened, leaving off the list any suggestion that they are, in fact, a really, really good team.


Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #578 on: January 24, 2015, 11:34:57 AM »

Offline footey

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A very basic back-of-the-envelope math in Excel shows that accounting solely for temperature changes (so assuming constant humidity), if the temperature on the field was 50F, a ball inflated to 13.5 will still be at regulation pressure if it was inflated at temperatures of 68.5F or cooler.

Correspondingly, a ball that was inflated to 12.5 will lose 1 PSI if it were inflated at 69.25 degrees, and 2 PSI if it were inflated at 90F.

My point is that I can easily see the Pats taking the ball inflation process to, say, an 80F laundry room, which is likely to result in about a 1.5 PSI drop in game conditions -- something that is technically not  against the letter of the law, but to which the team will never admit publicly.

They may not admit to it publicly, but if true, it will come out in the NFL investigation.  And if true, would result in some punishment, and continue to cast the Pats organization as cheaters.  I hope you are wrong about the trainers inserting excessively hot air into the balls.  I actually doubt that happened, as it would require Belichick's knowledge and input, and he came across quite sincerely in his presser about not having any knowledge of this.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #579 on: January 24, 2015, 03:22:01 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Belichick is p---ED he is dropping bombs right now.  Shame on the NFL and the media and all the haters
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #580 on: January 24, 2015, 03:25:30 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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This is awesome.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #581 on: January 24, 2015, 03:26:46 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Best press conference ever, I feel bad for the seahawks
CB Draft LA Lakers: Lamarcus Aldridge, Carmelo Anthony,Jrue Holiday, Wes Matthews  6.11, 7.16, 8.14, 8.15, 9.16, 11.5, 11.16

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #582 on: January 24, 2015, 03:29:23 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Bill telling off a reporter for spygate questions.  Awesome
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #583 on: January 24, 2015, 03:29:38 PM »

Offline crownontherocks

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Best press conference ever, I feel bad for the seahawks

BB going ham. He's about to throw someone out of the club like gronk. Love it, love it

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #584 on: January 24, 2015, 03:32:34 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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quote from rob Bradford on WEEI, "This was a middle finger to the league over this whole thing" 

Pretty much
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