Has LeBron surpassed Bird?

[SHAQATTACK]

Larry is a legend. that said, i believe Lebron will join the ranks of Bird/Magic/Jordan when it's all said and done, but right now, he still needs to win more.

for fun, my very loose tiers/ranks are:

A. Wilt/Russell - practically mythical players
B. Bird/Magic/Jordan - in the conversation for GOAT
C. Shaq/Duncan - dominated the league and surefire, top-of-mind HOF'er

i think lebron is in "tier C"

I'll admitt this is pretty much how I rank the pLayers of the past and Present too.

TP.....nice grouping .

[stb]

I just saw this article on Yahoo news:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/lebron-james-bests-michael-jordan-for-most-25-5-5-games-in-playoff-history-053019252.html

So I decided to look at regular season career stats and here is the complete list of all NBA players who have averaged at least 24 points, 10 rebounds and 6 assists a game:

http://bkref.com/tiny/yiPgy

End of discussion!

[bknova]

In the end Lebron will have a better individual career than Bird.  One reason will be longevity, the other will be competition. 

But lets be real here, Bird was the better passer, rebounder, and shooter, by far, and what is often ignored, Bird literally had no holes in his offense game.  He could score from the post, mid range, either wing, either corner, 3 pt range, facing up, back to the basket, off the dribble, off the pass, left handed, right handed.  I mean, literally this guy could score from anywhere.  If you take away Lebron's ability to barrel to the basket, this conversation is totally different, he's a rich man's Scottie Pippen. 

Oh, and when Lebron can put up an entire season averaging 30pts, 10boards, 6 assist while shooting 50/40/90 (while only putting up 3 3's a game) then we'll talk.  Oh, and the season before bird shot the same with 28.7 pts, 10 boards, and 7.6 assists with the same shooting percentages and shooting even less 3s.
Oh, all of this was with hand checking and hard fouls allowed. 

In my opinion, there is no comparison of who is the better small forward.  But Lebron will have the better career, and maybe even win more titles.

[D.o.s.]

I just saw this article on Yahoo news:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/lebron-james-bests-michael-jordan-for-most-25-5-5-games-in-playoff-history-053019252.html

So I decided to look at regular season career stats and here is the complete list of all NBA players who have averaged at least 24 points, 10 rebounds and 6 assists a game:

http://bkref.com/tiny/yiPgy

End of discussion!

That's sort of interesting.

What's more interesting is the fact that if you change it to single season records, you see that Bird only did it twice, but it puts him in much more appropriate company than LeBron:

http://bkref.com/tiny/bP1HL

[Banner18now!]

This is why I hate ESPN and never watch unless there is a sporting event. Because ESPN washes Lebron's balls on a daily basis everybody is so quick to put him above all the greats when his freaken career isn't even over yet. From day 1 the "King" has been jammed down everyone's throat. Make no mistake he wouldn't even have a ring right now if the Celtics had a healthy squad in 2012 and Ray Allen didn't bail him out last year. How quickly people forget the meltdown of Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs, or in game 6 last year his meltdown in the 4th until Allen bailed his ass out. It's disrespectful to say this guy is already better than Larry and his career isn't over.
What happens if he melts down in the finals and no one bails him out this year?
Then Wade's knees act up next year and Miami doesn't win again and he ends up with just 2 rings?
So lets just wait until the guy is done playing.
Steven A. Smith and Skip Bayless were debating this and Skip gave a ton of great points why Bird was better and all Steven A said was Lebron was the much better defender.
So Larry was better at everything else but because Lebron is a better defender is the argument?
Stop listening to idiots like Steven A  who don't bring up great points and just yell Lebron is the best. Rant Over!

[Banner18now!]

In the end Lebron will have a better individual career than Bird.  One reason will be longevity, the other will be competition. 

But lets be real here, Bird was the better passer, rebounder, and shooter, by far, and what is often ignored, Bird literally had no holes in his offense game.  He could score from the post, mid range, either wing, either corner, 3 pt range, facing up, back to the basket, off the dribble, off the pass, left handed, right handed.  I mean, literally this guy could score from anywhere.  If you take away Lebron's ability to barrel to the basket, this conversation is totally different, he's a rich man's Scottie Pippen. 

Oh, and when Lebron can put up an entire season averaging 30pts, 10boards, 6 assist while shooting 50/40/90 (while only putting up 3 3's a game) then we'll talk.  Oh, and the season before bird shot the same with 28.7 pts, 10 boards, and 7.6 assists with the same shooting percentages and shooting even less 3s.
Oh, all of this was with hand checking and hard fouls allowed. 

In my opinion, there is no comparison of who is the better small forward.  But Lebron will have the better career, and maybe even win more titles.

Give him a Tommy point!!

[bknova]

This is why I hate ESPN and never watch unless there is a sporting event. Because ESPN washes Lebron's balls on a daily basis everybody is so quick to put him above all the greats when his freaken career isn't even over yet. From day 1 the "King" has been jammed down everyone's throat. Make no mistake he wouldn't even have a ring right now if the Celtics had a healthy squad in 2012 and Ray Allen didn't bail him out last year. How quickly people forget the meltdown of Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs, or in game 6 last year his meltdown in the 4th until Allen bailed his ass out. It's disrespectful to say this guy is already better than Larry and his career isn't over.
What happens if he melts down in the finals and no one bails him out this year?
Then Wade's knees act up next year and Miami doesn't win again and he ends up with just 2 rings?
So lets just wait until the guy is done playing.
Steven A. Smith and Skip Bayless were debating this and Skip gave a ton of great points why Bird was better and all Steven A said was Lebron was the much better defender.
So Larry was better at everything else but because Lebron is a better defender is the argument?
Stop listening to idiots like Steven A  who don't bring up great points and just yell Lebron is the best. Rant Over!

I unfortunately watched this to.  And Skip is no different than any other Lebron homer.  He said Bird was as good a passer as Lebron.  I'm sorry, I seemed to have missed this. Lebron James is not a better passer than Larry Bird.  Never has been.   Never will be.  He's a flashier passer, but he completely lacks the instinct of Bird. Thats just nonsense.

[knuckleballer]

This is why I hate ESPN and never watch unless there is a sporting event. Because ESPN washes Lebron's balls on a daily basis everybody is so quick to put him above all the greats when his freaken career isn't even over yet. From day 1 the "King" has been jammed down everyone's throat. Make no mistake he wouldn't even have a ring right now if the Celtics had a healthy squad in 2012 and Ray Allen didn't bail him out last year. How quickly people forget the meltdown of Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs, or in game 6 last year his meltdown in the 4th until Allen bailed his ass out. It's disrespectful to say this guy is already better than Larry and his career isn't over.
What happens if he melts down in the finals and no one bails him out this year?
Then Wade's knees act up next year and Miami doesn't win again and he ends up with just 2 rings?
So lets just wait until the guy is done playing.
Steven A. Smith and Skip Bayless were debating this and Skip gave a ton of great points why Bird was better and all Steven A said was Lebron was the much better defender.
So Larry was better at everything else but because Lebron is a better defender is the argument?
Stop listening to idiots like Steven A  who don't bring up great points and just yell Lebron is the best. Rant Over!

I unfortunately watched this to.  And Skip is no different than any other Lebron homer.  He said Bird was as good a passer as Lebron.  I'm sorry, I seemed to have missed this. Lebron James is not a better passer than Larry Bird.  Never has been.   Never will be.  He's a flashier passer, but he completely lacks the instinct of Bird. Thats just nonsense.

Bird was an amazing passer, easily better than Lebron.  I don't even think Lebron is flashier.  Bird's no look passes were routine.  His court vision was incredible.  Lebron is stronger and faster which makes him a better one on one defender and better in transition.  He certainly has more spectacular dunks.

Who is better?  That's a tough call.  I think Lebron will be considered better by most, but I think that's because many people have forgotten how great Bird was.

Overall, maybe Lebron has an edge, but Bird had that killer instinct and ability to rise to the occasion.  Lebron lacks that.  As Banner18now said, Lebron choked in game 6 last year.  If he wasn't bailed out by those two long rebounds and Allen's miracle three, his performance over the last three minutes of that game would be considered one of the all time great choke jobs.  Lebron's last game with Cleveland was another good example.  He gave up in the last two minutes of the game when the game was still in reach.  Obviously, I was psyched the Celtics won, but it was also a little unsatisfying.  Bird never lost that way.  If he lost, he went down fighting.

[bknova]

This is why I hate ESPN and never watch unless there is a sporting event. Because ESPN washes Lebron's balls on a daily basis everybody is so quick to put him above all the greats when his freaken career isn't even over yet. From day 1 the "King" has been jammed down everyone's throat. Make no mistake he wouldn't even have a ring right now if the Celtics had a healthy squad in 2012 and Ray Allen didn't bail him out last year. How quickly people forget the meltdown of Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs, or in game 6 last year his meltdown in the 4th until Allen bailed his ass out. It's disrespectful to say this guy is already better than Larry and his career isn't over.
What happens if he melts down in the finals and no one bails him out this year?
Then Wade's knees act up next year and Miami doesn't win again and he ends up with just 2 rings?
So lets just wait until the guy is done playing.
Steven A. Smith and Skip Bayless were debating this and Skip gave a ton of great points why Bird was better and all Steven A said was Lebron was the much better defender.
So Larry was better at everything else but because Lebron is a better defender is the argument?
Stop listening to idiots like Steven A  who don't bring up great points and just yell Lebron is the best. Rant Over!

I unfortunately watched this to.  And Skip is no different than any other Lebron homer.  He said Bird was as good a passer as Lebron.  I'm sorry, I seemed to have missed this. Lebron James is not a better passer than Larry Bird.  Never has been.   Never will be.  He's a flashier passer, but he completely lacks the instinct of Bird. Thats just nonsense.

Bird was an amazing passer, easily better than Lebron.  I don't even think Lebron is flashier.  Bird's no look passes were routine.  His court vision was incredible.  Lebron is stronger and faster which makes him a better one on one defender and better in transition.  He certainly has more spectacular dunks.

Who is better?  That's a tough call.  I think Lebron will be considered better by most, but I think that's because many people have forgotten how great Bird was.

Overall, maybe Lebron has an edge, but Bird had that killer instinct and ability to rise to the occasion.  Lebron lacks that.  As Banner18now said, Lebron choked in game 6 last year.  If he wasn't bailed out by those two long rebounds and Allen's miracle three, his performance over the last three minutes of that game would be considered one of the all time great choke jobs.  Lebron's last game with Cleveland was another good example.  He gave up in the last two minutes of the game when the game was still in reach.  Obviously, I was psyched the Celtics won, but it was also a little unsatisfying.  Bird never lost that way.  If he lost, he went down fighting.

I actually don't think its even a comparison, but I do agree with you that most people, particularly the younger generation, will say Lebron.  Simply put, when analysts talk about Bird, they only talk about his shooting skill.  They never, ever talk about his offensive arsenal.  I mean, the guy had no holes in his offensive game.  And he's characterized as a shooter, a 3 pt shooter nonetheless.  He didn't even shoot very many 3s!  He'd have averaged over 30 at least 3 times in his career if he shot 3's like Lebron and Durant do.  He could and did, literally, put the ball in the basket from anywhere on the court using either hand.  Its not even close.  Lebron will never, ever, be that skilled at basketball. 

It remains to be seen what Lebron will accomplish in his waning years, but I saw a nearly 40 year old Jordan with virtually no athleticism put up 40+ three times that year.  I saw a 35 year old Bird who could barely walk put up 49, 14, and 12 in Portland in his final season.  When you lose all of your god given gifts and can still dominate like that, then we talk about being the greatest player at your position of all time.

[knuckleballer]

This is why I hate ESPN and never watch unless there is a sporting event. Because ESPN washes Lebron's balls on a daily basis everybody is so quick to put him above all the greats when his freaken career isn't even over yet. From day 1 the "King" has been jammed down everyone's throat. Make no mistake he wouldn't even have a ring right now if the Celtics had a healthy squad in 2012 and Ray Allen didn't bail him out last year. How quickly people forget the meltdown of Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs, or in game 6 last year his meltdown in the 4th until Allen bailed his ass out. It's disrespectful to say this guy is already better than Larry and his career isn't over.
What happens if he melts down in the finals and no one bails him out this year?
Then Wade's knees act up next year and Miami doesn't win again and he ends up with just 2 rings?
So lets just wait until the guy is done playing.
Steven A. Smith and Skip Bayless were debating this and Skip gave a ton of great points why Bird was better and all Steven A said was Lebron was the much better defender.
So Larry was better at everything else but because Lebron is a better defender is the argument?
Stop listening to idiots like Steven A  who don't bring up great points and just yell Lebron is the best. Rant Over!

I unfortunately watched this to.  And Skip is no different than any other Lebron homer.  He said Bird was as good a passer as Lebron.  I'm sorry, I seemed to have missed this. Lebron James is not a better passer than Larry Bird.  Never has been.   Never will be.  He's a flashier passer, but he completely lacks the instinct of Bird. Thats just nonsense.

Bird was an amazing passer, easily better than Lebron.  I don't even think Lebron is flashier.  Bird's no look passes were routine.  His court vision was incredible.  Lebron is stronger and faster which makes him a better one on one defender and better in transition.  He certainly has more spectacular dunks.

Who is better?  That's a tough call.  I think Lebron will be considered better by most, but I think that's because many people have forgotten how great Bird was.

Overall, maybe Lebron has an edge, but Bird had that killer instinct and ability to rise to the occasion.  Lebron lacks that.  As Banner18now said, Lebron choked in game 6 last year.  If he wasn't bailed out by those two long rebounds and Allen's miracle three, his performance over the last three minutes of that game would be considered one of the all time great choke jobs.  Lebron's last game with Cleveland was another good example.  He gave up in the last two minutes of the game when the game was still in reach.  Obviously, I was psyched the Celtics won, but it was also a little unsatisfying.  Bird never lost that way.  If he lost, he went down fighting.

I actually don't think its even a comparison, but I do agree with you that most people, particularly the younger generation, will say Lebron.  Simply put, when analysts talk about Bird, they only talk about his shooting skill.  They never, ever talk about his offensive arsenal.  I mean, the guy had no holes in his offensive game.  And he's characterized as a shooter, a 3 pt shooter nonetheless.  He didn't even shoot very many 3s!  He'd have averaged over 30 at least 3 times in his career if he shot 3's like Lebron and Durant do.  He could and did, literally, put the ball in the basket from anywhere on the court using either hand.  Its not even close.  Lebron will never, ever, be that skilled at basketball. 

It remains to be seen what Lebron will accomplish in his waning years, but I saw a nearly 40 year old Jordan with virtually no athleticism put up 40+ three times that year.  I saw a 35 year old Bird who could barely walk put up 49, 14, and 12 in Portland in his final season.  When you lose all of your god given gifts and can still dominate like that, then we talk about being the greatest player at your position of all time.

I remember that game against Portland.  He and Drexler were going back and forth all game.  That game was awesome.

[fitzhickey]

I'm only 15, but I'm quite a huge Bird fan. Bird's offensive abilities were just endless. He is certainly a better passer than Lebron, and I don't think their defensive capabilities are that far apart.

[D.o.s.]

This thread is a very nice indicator of why any sort of Basketball Mt. Rushmore is inherently flawed.

LeBron is almost certainly going to go down as a better player than Larry Bird, for better or worse, when that sort of designation misses the point entirely.

[BballTim]

This thread is a very nice indicator of why any sort of Basketball Mt. Rushmore is inherently flawed.

LeBron is almost certainly going to go down as a better player than Larry Bird, for better or worse, when that sort of designation misses the point entirely.

  Better player in terms of having a longer and healthier career, not better player in terms of, well, being a better basketball player. He'll get more accolades as time goes on and the comparisons are based more on statistics and less on people who actually watched Bird play. Bird was a significantly better shooter, passer and rebounder than LeBron.

[Rondo9]

This thread is a very nice indicator of why any sort of Basketball Mt. Rushmore is inherently flawed.

LeBron is almost certainly going to go down as a better player than Larry Bird, for better or worse, when that sort of designation misses the point entirely.

  Better player in terms of having a longer and healthier career, not better player in terms of, well, being a better basketball player. He'll get more accolades as time goes on and the comparisons are based more on statistics and less on people who actually watched Bird play. Bird was a significantly better shooter, passer and rebounder than LeBron.

But Lebron statistically averaged more assists than Larry Bird. I think he surpassed Bird in that area.

[fitzhickey]

This thread is a very nice indicator of why any sort of Basketball Mt. Rushmore is inherently flawed.

LeBron is almost certainly going to go down as a better player than Larry Bird, for better or worse, when that sort of designation misses the point entirely.

  Better player in terms of having a longer and healthier career, not better player in terms of, well, being a better basketball player. He'll get more accolades as time goes on and the comparisons are based more on statistics and less on people who actually watched Bird play. Bird was a significantly better shooter, passer and rebounder than LeBron.

But Lebron statistically averaged more assists than Larry Bird. I think he surpassed Bird in that area.

I'm not sure that having more assists necessarily makes you the better passer. in 2001-02 Andre Miller had more assists than Steve Nash, Jason Kidd and John Stockton.