Author Topic: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"  (Read 3432 times)

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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2019, 11:11:42 PM »

Offline gouki88

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This entire post is spot on...he refuses to let anyone close out a game. I'm still not sure he makes the team better. When it comes down to making the right basketball play at the end if the game will he pass it if that's the right play to make?

I'm still trying to figure him out. I'm not feeling the mix of Kyrie and AD. Just too many games missed between the two when I see Tatum, Rozier and Brown rarely missing games.

We've literally seen him do this. This season. Immediately the Phoenix game comes to mind. Kyrie draws a double team and passes it out to Marcus Morris for a 3 to force overtime.

But yeah. That doesn't matter. Doesn't fit the narrative.

So you pick one game and that makes it so. What about the Orlando game when he didn't get it and pouted? Why did we even need a clutch shot vs the Suns?
Lol. You said "will he pass it if it's the right play to make?" and the answer is yes, as he literally has.

What's wrong with being upset you don't get the last shot? This man has one of the biggest clutch shots in NBA history, and is IMO the best clutch scorer in the league (stats support this too). Seems a good reason to want the shot.
In the game we won against PHX Jayson Tatum shot 1-7, Terry shot 3-8 and Baynes shot 1-6. Might be why. In the game we lost against PHX Smart, Brown and Rozier combined for 10-28. Those are pretty easy reasons to point to as to why the games were close.
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2019, 12:25:14 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Doesn't have anything to do with bitterness over Thomas.

It is simple - He does not play a style that encourages constant ball movement on offense, our defense and overall play is much less active when he plays and he is by nature, a self-centered person and emotionally fragile. Yes, he is great the last two minutes, but the other 46, the rest of the team does not play as well as when he is a DNP for whatever reason. Hayward is a Larry Bird style forward - he needs the ball more to create for other players - his strength is not as a spot-up shooter, but everyone becomes a spot-up shooter when Irving is dribbling the shot clock down. Please don't quote his assist stats - the more assists he has means he is dominating the ball. This group does much better with the ball moving and assists are spread across the boxscore.

What do you think Ainge is going to say, "Uh, well, maybe I made a mistake with this trade and thinking we could change Irving into more of a playmaking point guard was foolish on my part. I didn't anticipate this constant drama, either. "
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 12:33:11 AM by tenn_smoothie »
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2019, 01:09:08 AM »

Offline C3LTSF4N

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“The more telling stat here is Boston’s overall on/off splits this season. With Irving on the court, Boston’s offensive rating is a team-best 113.8 and the team owns a net rating of plus-8.9 overall in his 1,526 minutes of floor time. Boston’s offensive rating plummets to 105 — a mark that would rank them 27th behind the Cleveland Cavaliers if maintained for the season — with a team-worst off-court net rating of plus-1.8 during the 1,278 minutes with Irving off the floor.

Those net ratings suggest that, when Irving is on the court, the Celtics play at a level somewhere between conference leaders Milwaukee and Golden State, and, when he’s on the bench, they are a seventh or eighth seed at best.

This is not to suggest that everything is sunshine and puppy dogs when Irving is on the court. Boston’s assist percentage dips when Irving is on the court, confirming the notion that he either can be a ball-dominant guard or that teammates can get caught sitting and watching for him to make plays.

Boston is almost forced to move the ball more without Irving and that can lead to nights like Tuesday where six players land in double figures, including the entire starting 5.

But you need only look at last week’s eyesore loss to the Los Angeles Clippers, the one in which the Celtics fumbled away a 28-point lead in a game Irving suffered a knee injury in the first half. In crunch time, with Los Angeles playing with confidence, the Celtics didn’t have a player they could lean on to score much-needed crunch-time hoops.

For all of Boston’s talents, Irving is still one of the most clutch players in the NBA. He’s the sort of individual talent that a team needs in the postseason when defenses clamp down and those late-game buckets are harder to generate. Boston’s younger players like Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown have certainly proven themselves capable of elevating on a big stage but Game 7 against the Cavaliers last year showed the value of having proven winners on the court in big-game moments.”

The team needs to learn to play together correctly.  Without the superior offense with Kyrie on the floor, we can’t beat the warrior 4/7.

Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2019, 05:19:25 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Doesn't have anything to do with bitterness over Thomas.

It is simple - He does not play a style that encourages constant ball movement on offense, our defense and overall play is much less active when he plays and he is by nature, a self-centered person and emotionally fragile. Yes, he is great the last two minutes, but the other 46, the rest of the team does not play as well as when he is a DNP for whatever reason. Hayward is a Larry Bird style forward - he needs the ball more to create for other players - his strength is not as a spot-up shooter, but everyone becomes a spot-up shooter when Irving is dribbling the shot clock down. Please don't quote his assist stats - the more assists he has means he is dominating the ball. This group does much better with the ball moving and assists are spread across the boxscore.

What do you think Ainge is going to say, "Uh, well, maybe I made a mistake with this trade and thinking we could change Irving into more of a playmaking point guard was foolish on my part. I didn't anticipate this constant drama, either. "
Take into consideration that teams with limited individual talent only can win with ball movement.
When you have more talented players on the roster they don't require the whole team to work for them to produce efficient scoring, meaning they are not as reliant on ball movement. Their skill level lessens that need. Among other things that is why they are leagues elite.
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2019, 07:15:20 AM »

Offline boscel33

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Anyone willing to get over the fact that we traded IT for Kyrie can see that. I think most of the vitriol and irrational hatred he gets is based on leftover hurt feelings from the IT trade.

Well, it wasn't IT for Kyrie.  Boston also gave up Crowder, Zizic, a 2018 1st (Collin Sexton), and Miami's 2020 2nd.

Look, am I saying TR is better than KI, no, but IMO the team seems to play better with TR at the point.
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2019, 07:17:51 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Anyone willing to get over the fact that we traded IT for Kyrie can see that. I think most of the vitriol and irrational hatred he gets is based on leftover hurt feelings from the IT trade.

Well, it wasn't IT for Kyrie.  Boston also gave up Crowder, Zizic, a 2018 1st (Collin Sexton), and Miami's 2020 2nd.

Look, am I saying TR is better than KI, no, but IMO the team seems to play better with TR at the point.
No. It. Doesn't

It provably is worse with Kyrie out. The numbers are even in this very thread:
Quote
The more telling stat here is Boston’s overall on/off splits this season. With Irving on the court, Boston’s offensive rating is a team-best 113.8 and the team owns a net rating of plus-8.9 overall in his 1,526 minutes of floor time. Boston’s offensive rating plummets to 105 — a mark that would rank them 27th behind the Cleveland Cavaliers if maintained for the season — with a team-worst off-court net rating of plus-1.8 during the 1,278 minutes with Irving off the floor.
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2019, 07:22:17 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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What did you expect him to say? ''The C's are a better team without Kyrie''? Good luck trying to re-sign him next summer if he says anything like that.

Not saying that Ainge is necessarily lying. Just that he would have said the exact same thing no matter what he thinks of Kyrie.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 07:27:54 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2019, 07:41:19 AM »

Offline Big333223

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This entire post is spot on...he refuses to let anyone close out a game. I'm still not sure he makes the team better. When it comes down to making the right basketball play at the end if the game will he pass it if that's the right play to make?

I'm still trying to figure him out. I'm not feeling the mix of Kyrie and AD. Just too many games missed between the two when I see Tatum, Rozier and Brown rarely missing games.

We've literally seen him do this. This season. Immediately the Phoenix game comes to mind. Kyrie draws a double team and passes it out to Marcus Morris for a 3 to force overtime.

But yeah. That doesn't matter. Doesn't fit the narrative.

So you pick one game and that makes it so. What about the Orlando game when he didn't get it and pouted? Why did we even need a clutch shot vs the Suns?
Lol. You said "will he pass it if it's the right play to make?" and the answer is yes, as he literally has.

What's wrong with being upset you don't get the last shot? This man has one of the biggest clutch shots in NBA history, and is IMO the best clutch scorer in the league (stats support this too). Seems a good reason to want the shot.
In the game we won against PHX Jayson Tatum shot 1-7, Terry shot 3-8 and Baynes shot 1-6. Might be why. In the game we lost against PHX Smart, Brown and Rozier combined for 10-28. Those are pretty easy reasons to point to as to why the games were close.

I'll add I immediately thought of an end-of-game play where Kyrie got to the rim and dumped it off to Tatum under the rim in crunch time (can't remember against who). Kyrie makes the right play when it matters. There is plenty of evidence for this for anyone watching games.

I even think the characterization of the Orlanod game is wrong. He was upset because Hayward didn't run the play. I think if Hayward had inbounded to Horford, like he was supposed to, and a non-Kyrie option had taken the last shot, Kyrie would've been fine with it. He was p---ed that Hayward dumped the ball onto Tatum in the corner where he was on an island rather than running the play and they lost the game. I also imagine if Tatum had hit the shot, Kyrie would've been elated to win the game, not upset he didn't get to take it. He pretty consistently seems happy for his teammates when someone else is in the spotlight.
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2019, 08:52:58 AM »

Offline RJ87

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This entire post is spot on...he refuses to let anyone close out a game. I'm still not sure he makes the team better. When it comes down to making the right basketball play at the end if the game will he pass it if that's the right play to make?

I'm still trying to figure him out. I'm not feeling the mix of Kyrie and AD. Just too many games missed between the two when I see Tatum, Rozier and Brown rarely missing games.

We've literally seen him do this. This season. Immediately the Phoenix game comes to mind. Kyrie draws a double team and passes it out to Marcus Morris for a 3 to force overtime.

But yeah. That doesn't matter. Doesn't fit the narrative.

So you pick one game and that makes it so. What about the Orlando game when he didn't get it and pouted? Why did we even need a clutch shot vs the Suns?
Lol. You said "will he pass it if it's the right play to make?" and the answer is yes, as he literally has.

What's wrong with being upset you don't get the last shot? This man has one of the biggest clutch shots in NBA history, and is IMO the best clutch scorer in the league (stats support this too). Seems a good reason to want the shot.
In the game we won against PHX Jayson Tatum shot 1-7, Terry shot 3-8 and Baynes shot 1-6. Might be why. In the game we lost against PHX Smart, Brown and Rozier combined for 10-28. Those are pretty easy reasons to point to as to why the games were close.

Exactly. And in my post, I said "immediately comes to mind", if I did a deep dive I could find more. His clutch stats - which are searchable - not only show him as a ridiculously efficient closer, but also as a great assist guy in the final minutes.

And the funny thing is, he accuses me of "picking one game and that makes it so" then proceeds to do the same thing by mentioning the Orlando game.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 10:09:48 AM by RJ87 »
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2019, 09:03:49 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

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Anyone willing to get over the fact that we traded IT for Kyrie can see that. I think most of the vitriol and irrational hatred he gets is based on leftover hurt feelings from the IT trade.

Nah, those dudes hate him for some other reason. I absolutely hated the fact we got rid of IT...until it was apparent how bad his hip was.

They're using him just like IT now, so it really doesn't matter anymore.

Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 10:02:09 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Doesn't have anything to do with bitterness over Thomas.

It is simple - He does not play a style that encourages constant ball movement on offense, our defense and overall play is much less active when he plays and he is by nature, a self-centered person and emotionally fragile. Yes, he is great the last two minutes, but the other 46, the rest of the team does not play as well as when he is a DNP for whatever reason. Hayward is a Larry Bird style forward - he needs the ball more to create for other players - his strength is not as a spot-up shooter, but everyone becomes a spot-up shooter when Irving is dribbling the shot clock down. Please don't quote his assist stats - the more assists he has means he is dominating the ball. This group does much better with the ball moving and assists are spread across the boxscore.

What do you think Ainge is going to say, "Uh, well, maybe I made a mistake with this trade and thinking we could change Irving into more of a playmaking point guard was foolish on my part. I didn't anticipate this constant drama, either. "
I do not disagree that Irving might be someone that is difficult to play with and that other may struggle with him on the floor (without looking at any stats).  But the question for me is, is the team better or worse as a whole when Irving plays (not any individual player)?  If the answer is yes, then the OTHER guys better figure it out.

Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 10:19:23 AM »

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Danny's certainly right. 

This team will only go as far as a healthy Kyrie will take them this season. 

Last year's postseason will not be repeated if Kyrie is not playing.  Don't get deluded into thinking that it will.


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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2019, 10:19:38 AM »

Offline RJ87

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he is by nature, a self-centered person and emotionally fragile.

It's always interesting to me when someone makes these sweeping proclamations of him as a person without actually knowing him. Meanwhile, his teammates say differently. Rozier is constantly talking about how Kyrie is one of his biggest supporters. Smart has talked about how Kyrie was one of the first people to reach out to him when his mother passed away. He's one of the more liked players in the league amongst fellow players. But yeah, hes a trash person.
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Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2019, 10:38:12 AM »

Offline td450

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The Celtics are going to move forward with Kyrie, and they are going to take a shot at Anthony Davis. Championships without MVP candidates are extreme long shots.

Still, it would have been interesting and maybe more fun to watch this team get built around Tatum and Brown, surrounded by Smart and Horford and a cast of aggressive two way players. They would be a tough competitive group, and the fans would love them

Boston loves stars that have thick skin, are resilient and have a sharp focus on winning. Raw talent will not win this town over. I really hope Kyrie and AD become those guys, because they are spectacularly talented, but both guys will need to evolve some to get there.

Re: Ainge: "idea of Celtics better without Kyrie makes no sense"
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2019, 10:04:30 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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No question Irving is a great offensive talent and maybe the best closer in the game - But his playing style does not complement his Coach's system or his teammates strengths and the entire team is clearly less active and animated on offense and defense when he is not injured.

Never called Irving a "trash person".  I said self-centered and emotionally fragile. It's great that he sometimes is supportive of teammates, but he also has many moments when he is not and, lord knows, he loves talking about himself. Just the fact that his latest quotes, his daily mood, his pro & con worth to the Celtics, etc. is a constant topic of conversation among media, fans and now, management and the coaching staff, says a lot about the drama he creates and the distractions that impact game performance, player morale and team unity.
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