Author Topic: Kemba’s got to go...  (Read 46393 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #165 on: February 08, 2021, 05:35:44 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867
So is he just untradeable?   Could we get a late first?   Id just try to dump his salary to get more flexible going forward..
Why would anyone give up a first round pick for Kemba? He has a massive contract, knee issues, he’s playing really poorly and is on the wrong side of 30. He’s not untradeable, but the C’s would likely need to attach picks and/or players to entice a team to take on his contract.
If you try to deal him you'll get pennies on the dollar. - or as you mentioned, you'll have to attached assets in order to deal him.  Have to keep him at this point - and that's the better move anyway.
His contract can be used to match salaries but not this year. Maybe next year -> Kemba plus picks = 2 role players from a tanking team
2 role players for a guy you were expecting to be one of your top 3 players is a talent downgrade. There's no other #1 PG on the roster unless you want to use Smart and walk the ball up.

Start or not. Brad has played Pritchard at end of games

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #166 on: February 08, 2021, 08:46:38 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 613
  • Tommy Points: 125
Here’s a question for you guys:

Which team would actually be interested in a trade for Kemba?

My first instinct is the Knicks. They seem perpetually in the hunt for star power and might be interested in a player “coming home”. Of course, they’ve got a handful of young point guards. I’m not sure.

I certainly think he can be traded. Teams are hungry for top-end talent and will stretch their imaginations to land it. If John Wall, Chris Paul, and Russell Westbrook can find teams that want them, then Kemba Walker can certainly find a home.

BTW, I’m not even sure this is the right course of action, I’m just curious to hear people’s thoughts on which team might actually be interested.


Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #167 on: February 08, 2021, 09:45:03 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6131
  • Tommy Points: 722
Didn't Kemba just say he will change his game to follow Brown and Tatum? Sounds like a good move, give him some time.

Please be specific. Did Walker, in fact, say this ? When ...... and where was it reported ?

Jay King
@ByJayKing
·
Jan 29
Kemba Walker said he doesn’t want Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown to adjust now that they’re all back on the court together. Walker said he’ll be the one to make the adjustments. He wants Tatum and Brown to stay super aggressive.

“I’ll figure it out.”

Whatever Walker's shooting struggles and the worn down knee, you have to love an attitude like that. That is a Celtic attitude.
Does this mean he would be open to being that sparkplug 6th man ? Seems a perfect role for him right now to help this team win - less minutes on his knees and more scoring opportunity with the 2nd unit. BTW, can you ever imagine Kyrie saying something like that ?

The mistake was Ainge thinking he needed another heavy-volume scorer at PG after the Cancer left. Could he and Stevens not see that the team's main scoring was from the wing position (at the time, Brown, Tatum and Hayward). If you are gonna spend all that money, use it on a playmaking PG to compliment your evolving stars and an upgrade at center to anchor the middle.

Look what Red did when it became obvious that Bird and Max were the main firepower for the team in the early 80's - he keeps Tiny, who was a great playmaker and could score plus Red acquired McHale and Parrish to beef up the post positions after Philly beat us up inside during the '80 ECF.

The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #168 on: February 08, 2021, 10:57:43 PM »

Offline BringToughnessBack

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8088
  • Tommy Points: 941
How dare a player not immediately recover from a bad knee and stem cell injections. 9 games this year..he should be shooting lights out like nothing ever happened. Let’s trade him now while he is less than one hundred percent and  keep him under the microscope while he is trying to recover.

Free agents take notice. If you go down with an injury for us, we will want you gone asap. But please come to Boston anyway.

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #169 on: February 08, 2021, 11:37:25 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7070
  • Tommy Points: 533
Didn't Kemba just say he will change his game to follow Brown and Tatum? Sounds like a good move, give him some time.

Please be specific. Did Walker, in fact, say this ? When ...... and where was it reported ?

Jay King
@ByJayKing
·
Jan 29
Kemba Walker said he doesn’t want Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown to adjust now that they’re all back on the court together. Walker said he’ll be the one to make the adjustments. He wants Tatum and Brown to stay super aggressive.

“I’ll figure it out.”

Whatever Walker's shooting struggles and the worn down knee, you have to love an attitude like that. That is a Celtic attitude.
Does this mean he would be open to being that sparkplug 6th man ? Seems a perfect role for him right now to help this team win - less minutes on his knees and more scoring opportunity with the 2nd unit. BTW, can you ever imagine Kyrie saying something like that ?

The mistake was Ainge thinking he needed another heavy-volume scorer at PG after the Cancer left. Could he and Stevens not see that the team's main scoring was from the wing position (at the time, Brown, Tatum and Hayward). If you are gonna spend all that money, use it on a playmaking PG to compliment your evolving stars and an upgrade at center to anchor the middle.
If I recall correctly there weren't a lot of options available at the time unless he wanted to keep Rozier who was coming off a horrible season. And they just lost Horford so Kyrie/Horford equaled a huge loss of talent. Sure they could have taken a long term approach and built around J and J but they also had Hayward and his contract.

Kemba routinely torched them for years and was 29 so all in all seemed like a good move - and still should be unless his knee finishes him at 30. 

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #170 on: February 08, 2021, 11:51:48 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10671
  • Tommy Points: 1416
So is he just untradeable?   Could we get a late first?   Id just try to dump his salary to get more flexible going forward..
Why would anyone give up a first round pick for Kemba? He has a massive contract, knee issues, he’s playing really poorly and is on the wrong side of 30. He’s not untradeable, but the C’s would likely need to attach picks and/or players to entice a team to take on his contract.
If you try to deal him you'll get pennies on the dollar. - or as you mentioned, you'll have to attached assets in order to deal him.  Have to keep him at this point - and that's the better move anyway.
His contract can be used to match salaries but not this year. Maybe next year -> Kemba plus picks = 2 role players from a tanking team
2 role players for a guy you were expecting to be one of your top 3 players is a talent downgrade. There's no other #1 PG on the roster unless you want to use Smart and walk the ball up.

I’d be fine with Smart until Pritchard is ready to start, which might be next year at this rate. Smart Has really improved his passing and right now, he’s an upgrade over Kemba in every possible way.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #171 on: February 08, 2021, 11:55:20 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10671
  • Tommy Points: 1416
Here’s a question for you guys:

Which team would actually be interested in a trade for Kemba?

My first instinct is the Knicks. They seem perpetually in the hunt for star power and might be interested in a player “coming home”. Of course, they’ve got a handful of young point guards. I’m not sure.

I certainly think he can be traded. Teams are hungry for top-end talent and will stretch their imaginations to land it. If John Wall, Chris Paul, and Russell Westbrook can find teams that want them, then Kemba Walker can certainly find a home.

BTW, I’m not even sure this is the right course of action, I’m just curious to hear people’s thoughts on which team might actually be interested.

You do know who is coaching the Knicks, right? Plus they just traded for a Rose. No one will be interested in Kemba right now. He’s playing horribly and his contract is enormous. Would have to swap his bad contract for another, plus add picks to make it worthwhile for the other team.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2021, 12:38:25 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7816
  • Tommy Points: 560
  • STAND FIRM, SAY NO TO VIBE MEN
I feel that a lot of criticism directed at Kemba is based on his play while he's still acclimatising to NBA basketball this season - he was a very good passer last year who blended quick decision making and off-ball movement with his on-ball prowess.

I’m not sure a player can be considered a very good passer when averaging only 4 assists per game, especially When the player is a point guard.


Very good sounds to me like a judgment of skill / ability, not volume.

Kemba's career Assist Percentage is 28.3%. For reference, Kyle Lowry is just a tick higher at 30.5%.

Kemba's career Turnover Percentage is 10.5%.  Chris Paul's career Turnover Percentage is 13.3%.



In other words, Kemba is a fairly willing passer for a starting point guard, and he's elite at not turning the ball over.


I would say that qualifies him as a good to very good ball handler and passer.

His assist to TO ratio is 2-1. He’s 27th is the league among PG’s in APG. Sorry, I just don’t think that’s very good.
And none of these actually measure passing skill :laugh:. Let's take a look at how raw box stats suck at evaluating skill and ability.

Which assist is more valuable to teams?

Assist 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RqXf0jy0Ec

Assist 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcp46AGIBjs

Both of them count as assists, but I'm pretty sure that anyone with a discerning eye would say that assist 2 is infinitely more valuable than 1.

I'm not saying that Kemba is anywhere near to the lad who threw assist 2 (he's an offensive GOAT candidate), but he gets his assists by mainly fizzing passes through windows like this for high value layups and open jumpshots, while a good amount of the guys ahead of him in APG and A/TO are practitioners of assist 1: making suboptimal passes that are safe but don't generate a huge amount of value for teams.

Statistics don't lie, but let's not misuse statistics.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2021, 09:14:14 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10671
  • Tommy Points: 1416
I feel that a lot of criticism directed at Kemba is based on his play while he's still acclimatising to NBA basketball this season - he was a very good passer last year who blended quick decision making and off-ball movement with his on-ball prowess.

I’m not sure a player can be considered a very good passer when averaging only 4 assists per game, especially When the player is a point guard.


Very good sounds to me like a judgment of skill / ability, not volume.

Kemba's career Assist Percentage is 28.3%. For reference, Kyle Lowry is just a tick higher at 30.5%.

Kemba's career Turnover Percentage is 10.5%.  Chris Paul's career Turnover Percentage is 13.3%.



In other words, Kemba is a fairly willing passer for a starting point guard, and he's elite at not turning the ball over.


I would say that qualifies him as a good to very good ball handler and passer.

His assist to TO ratio is 2-1. He’s 27th is the league among PG’s in APG. Sorry, I just don’t think that’s very good.
And none of these actually measure passing skill :laugh:. Let's take a look at how raw box stats suck at evaluating skill and ability.

Which assist is more valuable to teams?

Assist 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RqXf0jy0Ec

Assist 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcp46AGIBjs

Both of them count as assists, but I'm pretty sure that anyone with a discerning eye would say that assist 2 is infinitely more valuable than 1.

I'm not saying that Kemba is anywhere near to the lad who threw assist 2 (he's an offensive GOAT candidate), but he gets his assists by mainly fizzing passes through windows like this for high value layups and open jumpshots, while a good amount of the guys ahead of him in APG and A/TO are practitioners of assist 1: making suboptimal passes that are safe but don't generate a huge amount of value for teams.

Statistics don't lie, but let's not misuse statistics.

I’m not sure how listing his Assist to T/O ratio and showing where  he ranks in terms of all other PG’s in the league is misusing stats.... if you want to dissect the numbers to fit your argument, have at it. His shooting numbers are probably misleading as well?
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2021, 09:39:08 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7816
  • Tommy Points: 560
  • STAND FIRM, SAY NO TO VIBE MEN
I feel that a lot of criticism directed at Kemba is based on his play while he's still acclimatising to NBA basketball this season - he was a very good passer last year who blended quick decision making and off-ball movement with his on-ball prowess.

I’m not sure a player can be considered a very good passer when averaging only 4 assists per game, especially When the player is a point guard.


Very good sounds to me like a judgment of skill / ability, not volume.

Kemba's career Assist Percentage is 28.3%. For reference, Kyle Lowry is just a tick higher at 30.5%.

Kemba's career Turnover Percentage is 10.5%.  Chris Paul's career Turnover Percentage is 13.3%.



In other words, Kemba is a fairly willing passer for a starting point guard, and he's elite at not turning the ball over.


I would say that qualifies him as a good to very good ball handler and passer.

His assist to TO ratio is 2-1. He’s 27th is the league among PG’s in APG. Sorry, I just don’t think that’s very good.
And none of these actually measure passing skill :laugh:. Let's take a look at how raw box stats suck at evaluating skill and ability.

Which assist is more valuable to teams?

Assist 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RqXf0jy0Ec

Assist 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcp46AGIBjs

Both of them count as assists, but I'm pretty sure that anyone with a discerning eye would say that assist 2 is infinitely more valuable than 1.

I'm not saying that Kemba is anywhere near to the lad who threw assist 2 (he's an offensive GOAT candidate), but he gets his assists by mainly fizzing passes through windows like this for high value layups and open jumpshots, while a good amount of the guys ahead of him in APG and A/TO are practitioners of assist 1: making suboptimal passes that are safe but don't generate a huge amount of value for teams.

Statistics don't lie, but let's not misuse statistics.
I’m not sure how listing his Assist to T/O ratio and showing where he ranks in terms of all other PG’s in the league is misusing stats.... if you want to dissect the numbers to fit your argument, have at it. His shooting numbers are probably misleading as well?
Because you're using those stats to say that he somehow isn't a very good passer. If you want to misuse stats in order to fit your argument, "have at it" :laugh:

As for his shooting, you definitely have never heard of the phrase "small sample size" ;)
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2021, 09:44:24 AM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
I feel that a lot of criticism directed at Kemba is based on his play while he's still acclimatising to NBA basketball this season - he was a very good passer last year who blended quick decision making and off-ball movement with his on-ball prowess.

I’m not sure a player can be considered a very good passer when averaging only 4 assists per game, especially When that player is a point guard.

Two notable factors work to suppress Kemba's assist totals.

1) Touches.  Kemba averaged just 70 touches per game last year.  That is WAY below the number of touches that guys like Trae Young (87), Luka (96), Lebron (91) and other assist-per-game leaders average.   Kemba shares a ton of touches with Smart, Tatum and others.   Only 9 games in this year and he's been on minute-restrictions, but he's averaging only 62 touches per game so far this season.   You are not going to generate high assist totals with that few of touches.

2) Offensive strategy.   The Celtics last year and this year, given the particular types of talent they have, rely on isolation plays heavily.   Their offense last year was designed around using 3-wing lineups to exploit match-ups and while they've lost Hayward, and have rarely had all their weapons available this year, they still are running the same strategy.   Thus, the Celtics pass-to-create-the-matchup more than pass-to-finish.   They do run offensive plays, but the result of the play is often just the match up, not the actual scoring attempt.  This is why the Celtics as a _team_ have low assist numbers last year and this year.   

But make no mistake, Kemba is an excellent passer.  He led the Celtics in potential assists last year (8.2/gm) and maybe if some of his teammates were a little more efficient at scoring he would have had higher assist counts.   He passed an average of 48 times out of those 70 touches per game (~69%) and as others have pointed out, his turnover rates were very, very low.

But with the above two factors in play, Kemba is never likely to post Rondo-like assist totals.

In this last game, the loss to the Suns, Kemba had 12 potential assists.  His teammates, unfortunately, shot a lousy 2 of 12 on those plays.  So he ended up with being credited with just 2 assists.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2021, 09:53:07 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10671
  • Tommy Points: 1416
I feel that a lot of criticism directed at Kemba is based on his play while he's still acclimatising to NBA basketball this season - he was a very good passer last year who blended quick decision making and off-ball movement with his on-ball prowess.

I’m not sure a player can be considered a very good passer when averaging only 4 assists per game, especially When the player is a point guard.


Very good sounds to me like a judgment of skill / ability, not volume.

Kemba's career Assist Percentage is 28.3%. For reference, Kyle Lowry is just a tick higher at 30.5%.

Kemba's career Turnover Percentage is 10.5%.  Chris Paul's career Turnover Percentage is 13.3%.



In other words, Kemba is a fairly willing passer for a starting point guard, and he's elite at not turning the ball over.


I would say that qualifies him as a good to very good ball handler and passer.

His assist to TO ratio is 2-1. He’s 27th is the league among PG’s in APG. Sorry, I just don’t think that’s very good.
And none of these actually measure passing skill :laugh:. Let's take a look at how raw box stats suck at evaluating skill and ability.

Which assist is more valuable to teams?

Assist 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RqXf0jy0Ec

Assist 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcp46AGIBjs

Both of them count as assists, but I'm pretty sure that anyone with a discerning eye would say that assist 2 is infinitely more valuable than 1.

I'm not saying that Kemba is anywhere near to the lad who threw assist 2 (he's an offensive GOAT candidate), but he gets his assists by mainly fizzing passes through windows like this for high value layups and open jumpshots, while a good amount of the guys ahead of him in APG and A/TO are practitioners of assist 1: making suboptimal passes that are safe but don't generate a huge amount of value for teams.

Statistics don't lie, but let's not misuse statistics.
I’m not sure how listing his Assist to T/O ratio and showing where he ranks in terms of all other PG’s in the league is misusing stats.... if you want to dissect the numbers to fit your argument, have at it. His shooting numbers are probably misleading as well?
Because you're using those stats to say that he somehow isn't a very good passer. If you want to misuse stats in order to fit your argument, "have at it" :laugh:

As for his shooting, you definitely have never heard of the phrase "small sample size" ;)

Yes, 10 years In the league. Definitely a small sample size 👌
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #177 on: February 09, 2021, 09:59:05 AM »

Offline RJ87

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11685
  • Tommy Points: 1406
  • Let's Go Celtics!
Didn't Kemba just say he will change his game to follow Brown and Tatum? Sounds like a good move, give him some time.

Please be specific. Did Walker, in fact, say this ? When ...... and where was it reported ?

Jay King
@ByJayKing
·
Jan 29
Kemba Walker said he doesn’t want Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown to adjust now that they’re all back on the court together. Walker said he’ll be the one to make the adjustments. He wants Tatum and Brown to stay super aggressive.

“I’ll figure it out.”

Whatever Walker's shooting struggles and the worn down knee, you have to love an attitude like that. That is a Celtic attitude.
Does this mean he would be open to being that sparkplug 6th man ? Seems a perfect role for him right now to help this team win - less minutes on his knees and more scoring opportunity with the 2nd unit. BTW, can you ever imagine Kyrie saying something like that ?

The mistake was Ainge thinking he needed another heavy-volume scorer at PG after the Cancer left. Could he and Stevens not see that the team's main scoring was from the wing position (at the time, Brown, Tatum and Hayward). If you are gonna spend all that money, use it on a playmaking PG to compliment your evolving stars and an upgrade at center to anchor the middle.

Look what Red did when it became obvious that Bird and Max were the main firepower for the team in the early 80's - he keeps Tiny, who was a great playmaker and could score plus Red acquired McHale and Parrish to beef up the post positions after Philly beat us up inside during the '80 ECF.

Hindsight is 20/20. That was less clear at the time. Jaylen averaged 13 pts that season, Hayward averaged just 11.5 and looked like a shell of himself, and Jayson had averaged 15. There was also the factor of Kemba being a great locker room presence and leader and we needed that in a max player.

It's easy to say now how we should've used that money, but everyone was pretty estatic when we got Kemba.
2021 Houston Rockets
PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
SF: Gordon Hayward/Demar Derozan
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #178 on: February 09, 2021, 10:00:28 AM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2935
  • Tommy Points: 349
I'm curious what needs to happen in order for the "Kemba's got to go!" crowd to change their tune.

Obviously he's been shooting like crap recently, but as far as I can tell...we all recognize that this is a slump he's going through. And by nature of it being a slump, an All-Star talent will shoot their way out of it soon.

That is, unless you're Jeff Teague ;D

Re: Kemba’s got to go...
« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2021, 10:24:52 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8825
  • Tommy Points: 289
I'm curious what needs to happen in order for the "Kemba's got to go!" crowd to change their tune.


Be more efficient, play better defense, pass better, grow 5".