Is Harden the greatest offensive player of All-Time?

[10610786d]

Jordan still holds the record for most Offensive Win Shares in a regular season with 15.2 back in 87-88.


Harden is certainly near the top of the list in terms of a guy who combines a very high usage rate with very high scoring efficiency.


He generates more three pointers, for himself or teammates, than anybody else in NBA history. 

I'd also wager he's got the record for three pointers made + free throws made in a season.  Last year he had over 600 free throws made and over 250 three pointers made.


That doesn't make him the greatest offensive player of all time by any means.  But he is unique in the annals of NBA history in the character of his offensive production.

Personally I find Harden impressive but unappealing.  He treats basketball like a parlour game, not an expression of teamwork or creativity.  He's found the statistical seams of the sport and is trying his best to break it.


A game in which both teams do nothing but attempt threes (many unassisted), dunks, or free throws might be a great exhibition of offensive efficiency, but it would not be fun to watch.

Has Harden also gotten rid of his top of the key 2's at this point?

[tazzmaniac]

He's not even the greatest offensive player of his generation.

KD > Harden all day long

D'Antoni made Steve Nash a 2-time MVP. Imo, it's all about the system. With that many possessions per game it becomes easier for talented offensive players to post big numbers across the board.

Curry also gets the edge IMO.  The only realistic argument for Harden is that he's on par with Durant as an isolation player.  He's honestly better in that regard.  I don't think KD could bring the ball up the court on every possession and match Harden's output.  The issue for Harden is that none of that really matters in a team sport.  Durant can move without the ball and he is much more deadly when gets the ball in his sweet spots.  Harden exerts twice the effort for the same number of points.

Was a fan of Harden's game during his days in OKC. Not o fan of his game in Houston (much less since D'Antoni took the helm). He is obviously a very talented player but imo he is not a winner. He is an entertainer.

- plays no D whatsoever
- terrible shot selection
- at his best when playing at fast pace -> great player for the regular season, not so much for the playoffs

I'm with you on Steph being better than Harden. Only mentioned KD cause imo he's the best offensive player of his generation.

It's Durant for sure, at least when it comes to pure scoring.  Overall, it's neck and neck between LeBron and KD.

Overall, it's hands down LeBron in my book.

defense: LeBron > KD (although he's been saving his energy for offense as of late)
court vision: LeBron > KD
ball handling: LeBron > KD
rebounding: LeBron ≈ KD
scoring-shooting: LeBron < KD

I agree.  It must be 5 years since the talk began about KD passing Lebron began and it still hasn't happened.  It may not happen until Lebron retires. 

[PhoSita]

Jordan still holds the record for most Offensive Win Shares in a regular season with 15.2 back in 87-88.


Harden is certainly near the top of the list in terms of a guy who combines a very high usage rate with very high scoring efficiency.


He generates more three pointers, for himself or teammates, than anybody else in NBA history. 

I'd also wager he's got the record for three pointers made + free throws made in a season.  Last year he had over 600 free throws made and over 250 three pointers made.


That doesn't make him the greatest offensive player of all time by any means.  But he is unique in the annals of NBA history in the character of his offensive production.

Personally I find Harden impressive but unappealing.  He treats basketball like a parlour game, not an expression of teamwork or creativity.  He's found the statistical seams of the sport and is trying his best to break it.


A game in which both teams do nothing but attempt threes (many unassisted), dunks, or free throws might be a great exhibition of offensive efficiency, but it would not be fun to watch.

Has Harden also gotten rid of his top of the key 2's at this point?

I think he pretty much only tries to take threes or get fouled inside.

[PhoSita]

For what it's worth, the 86-87 Lakers still have the best ORTG all time.

[Moranis]

Jordan still holds the record for most Offensive Win Shares in a regular season with 15.2 back in 87-88.


Harden is certainly near the top of the list in terms of a guy who combines a very high usage rate with very high scoring efficiency.


He generates more three pointers, for himself or teammates, than anybody else in NBA history. 

I'd also wager he's got the record for three pointers made + free throws made in a season.  Last year he had over 600 free throws made and over 250 three pointers made.


That doesn't make him the greatest offensive player of all time by any means.  But he is unique in the annals of NBA history in the character of his offensive production.

Personally I find Harden impressive but unappealing.  He treats basketball like a parlour game, not an expression of teamwork or creativity.  He's found the statistical seams of the sport and is trying his best to break it.


A game in which both teams do nothing but attempt threes (many unassisted), dunks, or free throws might be a great exhibition of offensive efficiency, but it would not be fun to watch.

According to bball-ref, Wilt had 17.1 OWS in 61-61 and 16.0 OWS in 62-63.  He also had 14.8 OWS in 66-67.  Wilt is still 3rd all time in OWS only Kareem and Lebron have more (and they both have more seasons).  Wilt averaged 10.22 OWS in his 15 seasons, Kareem averaged 8.946 in his 20 seasons (though has the best of any player at 18.31 in 71-72, he also had 17.01 in 70-71), and through last year Lebron averaged 10.33 (his best was 14.61 in 12-13).  Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 9.99 though in his 11 full seasons in Chicago averaged 13.05.  If you take out Wilt's partial season he bumped up to 10.85.  Oscar is actually 4th all time just ahead of Jordan.  Oscar also eclipsed Jordan's best in the 63-64 season when he had 16.2 OWS.  He ended up averaging 10.85 in his career, but just in Cincinnati, Oscar averaged 13.18 OWS a season over his 10 seasons there.  Mikan actually has the 2nd best season in OWS getting 17.64 OWS in the 48-49 season, the next season Groza had 16.50 and then it went back to Mikan at 16.00. 

[PhoSita]

Jordan still holds the record for most Offensive Win Shares in a regular season with 15.2 back in 87-88.


Harden is certainly near the top of the list in terms of a guy who combines a very high usage rate with very high scoring efficiency.


He generates more three pointers, for himself or teammates, than anybody else in NBA history. 

I'd also wager he's got the record for three pointers made + free throws made in a season.  Last year he had over 600 free throws made and over 250 three pointers made.


That doesn't make him the greatest offensive player of all time by any means.  But he is unique in the annals of NBA history in the character of his offensive production.

Personally I find Harden impressive but unappealing.  He treats basketball like a parlour game, not an expression of teamwork or creativity.  He's found the statistical seams of the sport and is trying his best to break it.


A game in which both teams do nothing but attempt threes (many unassisted), dunks, or free throws might be a great exhibition of offensive efficiency, but it would not be fun to watch.

According to bball-ref, Wilt had 17.1 OWS in 61-61 and 16.0 OWS in 62-63.  He also had 14.8 OWS in 66-67.  Wilt is still 3rd all time in OWS only Kareem and Lebron have more (and they both have more seasons).  Wilt averaged 10.22 OWS in his 15 seasons, Kareem averaged 8.946 in his 20 seasons (though has the best of any player at 18.31 in 71-72, he also had 17.01 in 70-71), and through last year Lebron averaged 10.33 (his best was 14.61 in 12-13).  Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 9.99 though in his 11 full seasons in Chicago averaged 13.05.  If you take out Wilt's partial season he bumped up to 10.85.  Oscar is actually 4th all time just ahead of Jordan.  Oscar also eclipsed Jordan's best in the 63-64 season when he had 16.2 OWS.  He ended up averaging 10.85 in his career, but just in Cincinnati, Oscar averaged 13.18 OWS a season over his 10 seasons there.  Mikan actually has the 2nd best season in OWS getting 17.64 OWS in the 48-49 season, the next season Groza had 16.50 and then it went back to Mikan at 16.00.

Yeah I was looking at the 3 point era.


Those seasons back in the 50s, 60s, 70s ... I dunno if you can really compare anything to those.  Almost a different sport.

[Moranis]

Jordan still holds the record for most Offensive Win Shares in a regular season with 15.2 back in 87-88.


Harden is certainly near the top of the list in terms of a guy who combines a very high usage rate with very high scoring efficiency.


He generates more three pointers, for himself or teammates, than anybody else in NBA history. 

I'd also wager he's got the record for three pointers made + free throws made in a season.  Last year he had over 600 free throws made and over 250 three pointers made.


That doesn't make him the greatest offensive player of all time by any means.  But he is unique in the annals of NBA history in the character of his offensive production.

Personally I find Harden impressive but unappealing.  He treats basketball like a parlour game, not an expression of teamwork or creativity.  He's found the statistical seams of the sport and is trying his best to break it.


A game in which both teams do nothing but attempt threes (many unassisted), dunks, or free throws might be a great exhibition of offensive efficiency, but it would not be fun to watch.

According to bball-ref, Wilt had 17.1 OWS in 61-61 and 16.0 OWS in 62-63.  He also had 14.8 OWS in 66-67.  Wilt is still 3rd all time in OWS only Kareem and Lebron have more (and they both have more seasons).  Wilt averaged 10.22 OWS in his 15 seasons, Kareem averaged 8.946 in his 20 seasons (though has the best of any player at 18.31 in 71-72, he also had 17.01 in 70-71), and through last year Lebron averaged 10.33 (his best was 14.61 in 12-13).  Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 9.99 though in his 11 full seasons in Chicago averaged 13.05.  If you take out Wilt's partial season he bumped up to 10.85.  Oscar is actually 4th all time just ahead of Jordan.  Oscar also eclipsed Jordan's best in the 63-64 season when he had 16.2 OWS.  He ended up averaging 10.85 in his career, but just in Cincinnati, Oscar averaged 13.18 OWS a season over his 10 seasons there.  Mikan actually has the 2nd best season in OWS getting 17.64 OWS in the 48-49 season, the next season Groza had 16.50 and then it went back to Mikan at 16.00.

Yeah I was looking at the 3 point era.


Those seasons back in the 50s, 60s, 70s ... I dunno if you can really compare anything to those.  Almost a different sport.

I think something like Winshares actually is transferrable because at the end of the day it is a measurement of wins and there are only 82 games, so you can't have more wins than that.  Comparing totals and things like that is a waste of time, but the stats like winshares, that either account for pace or are non-pace specific have some merit in transferring. 

I generally just look at how the player compared to his peers and measure dominance that way.  Jordan led the league in OWS 8 seasons (6 in a row).  No one has a run of dominance like that, so it isn't hard to use that stat like that.  Kareem led the league 6 times, but it was spread out over a decade.  Johnston actually is 3rd with 5 league leaders.  Oscar and Lebron have 4. Wilt only has 3.

[PhoSita]

I think if you're measuring dominance relative to peers, that's fine.

If we're trying to assess player ability across NBA eras, though, I think there's some comparison to be made between the 80s and today (though it's a stretch), but there's really no relationship between the game from the 60s and today.

[Moranis]

I think if you're measuring dominance relative to peers, that's fine.

If we're trying to assess player ability across NBA eras, though, I think there's some comparison to be made between the 80s and today (though it's a stretch), but there's really no relationship between the game from the 60s and today.

As it pertains to offense and defense, why wouldn't there be?  Just because there is a 3 point shot today and wasn't in the 60's, doesn't mean you can't compare offensive impacts.  Obviously every era is different, but I have a hard time just ignoring 3 decades when talking about historical records and trends (especially when those 3 decades have some of the greatest players and teams ever).  I do think Wilt is the greatest offensive player ever, but there is plenty of statistical evidence to support Jordan or Kareem or Oscar or James.  If Harden keeps this level of offensive play up for the next couple of seasons, then you can add his name to that list as well (he led the league the last 2 years in OWS and is currently leading the league this year). 

[coco]

What an ugly/boring game he has.   He gets bailed by the refs all the time.

Apart from his 3ptr step back - which is set up by his successful drives to the basket; he has nothing else.   

Remember when they started calling offensive fouls on Shaq; after a decade of bullying over his defenders?  That will happen to Harden....eventually. 

Houston is a one trick Pony.  50% of Harden drives should be "play-on".

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

What an ugly/boring game he has.   He gets bailed by the refs all the time.

Apart from his 3ptr step back - which is set up by his successful drives to the basket; he has nothing else.   

Remember when they started calling offensive fouls on Shaq; after a decade of bullying over his defenders?  That will happen to Harden....eventually. 

Houston is a one trick Pony.  50% of Harden drives should be "play-on".

I completely agree.

And to answer the original question: Goodness, no. Harden is perhaps the biggest beneficiary of modern officiating. The greatest offensive player of all time is probably someone who averaged a high point total in the '80s despite all of the hand-checking that went on.

[slamtheking]

owner hyperbole for his superstar player.

this topic would start with Wilt and pretty much end with Wilt.

It definitely starts with Wilt, but there are plenty of arguments to be made for other players.  For example, Kareem averaged 35 PPG in 1971 while shooting 57% from the field.  Wilt never accomplished this efficiency in a season where he averaged 30+ PPG.  Could Kareem have put up 50 PPG on 40 shot attempts in 1962?  I would like to think the answer is yes, especially when you consider that he was a far superior free throw shooter.  On the flip side, Kareem never lead the NBA in assists.  Wilt accomplished this in 1968 while scoring 24 PPG.  He also lead the NBA in FG% during the same period.

Kareem was the better FT shooter but Wilt was far more dominant in the paint than Kareem and was a much better passer which is part of playing offense.   you can try to argue it but I don't think you'll get much traction with it. 

to Kareem's credit, even though he played some of his career during the 3-point era, he didn't personally score using that option unlike Jordan the players of today.  although, Kareem did benefit a little from having more spacing to work in due to teammates being able to shoot the 3.

with that in consideration, Wilt's offensive talents are even more impressive and distance him even further from anyone else.

[Chief]

Step back 3 point shooter...yes.

Not the type of offense I enjoy watching though.

[mgent]

You'd think the greatest offensive player of All-Time wouldn't turn the ball over that often.

[PhoSita]

I think if you're measuring dominance relative to peers, that's fine.

If we're trying to assess player ability across NBA eras, though, I think there's some comparison to be made between the 80s and today (though it's a stretch), but there's really no relationship between the game from the 60s and today.

As it pertains to offense and defense, why wouldn't there be?  Just because there is a 3 point shot today and wasn't in the 60's, doesn't mean you can't compare offensive impacts.  Obviously every era is different, but I have a hard time just ignoring 3 decades when talking about historical records and trends (especially when those 3 decades have some of the greatest players and teams ever).  I do think Wilt is the greatest offensive player ever, but there is plenty of statistical evidence to support Jordan or Kareem or Oscar or James.  If Harden keeps this level of offensive play up for the next couple of seasons, then you can add his name to that list as well (he led the league the last 2 years in OWS and is currently leading the league this year).

In 61-62 Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game and attempted 40 shots a game with 17 free throws attempted per game.

These numbers don't make any sense in the context of the modern game. 

He basically played the entire game and on more than half of his team's possessions they passed it to him near the basket and he attempted to dunk or lay it in.

From this one can conclude that Wilt was so much bigger, stronger, more athletic than his opponents as to make him seem like a creature out of myth or legend.

I don't if you can say that the game he was playing has much in common with the NBA game today.