Author Topic: Horford’s Leadership Overrated  (Read 5338 times)

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Re: Horford’s Leadership Overrated
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2019, 11:32:13 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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Long time reader and first time poster here on Celticsstrong.
I wish the C’s would have been able to keep Horford. He is a good big man on a team that is short on big men. However; I think the idea that he is some great locker room presence is inflated. Last years team was a disaster in terms of chemistry and results and Horford was not able to stop the bleeding of in fighting. I’m sure he’s a good guy who minds his own business and acts like a pro but from the outside it kind of looks like the leadership ends there. Sort of like Jeter who gets credit for being a leader for neve getting into trouble but you can’t find a teammate of his who can ever think of a time when he opened his mouth or called somebody out.



You're as incorrect with Al, as you are with Jeter. Al leads by example...it's the passes he makes, the shots he gives up in favor of someone else taking a better one. It's the work ethic he shows. Especially in this modern-day NBA, he will be missed on this team.

As to Jeter...he could do more with a stare than many could do with some fluffy speech. He's revered by ex-teammates and players across baseball.

You are sadly mistaken with both. 

Re: Horford’s Leadership Overrated
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2019, 12:14:13 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Last years problems were an organizational failure.

Horford can't challenge a guy like Kyrie if the coach and management won't back him up. They clearly allowed him to do what he wanted because they were terrified he would leave. Arguing with the coach on the sideline, ignoring the play-calls, taking shots at teammates through the media, and being an over-all jerk with impunity.

It was the Celtics organization that made it "Kyrie's Team" and they paid the price.

The problem wasn't that they made it "Kyrie's team", which was 100% the right thing to do. The problem was they didn't follow through and stay consistent with that plan. When guys like Brown and Rozier demonstrated they couldn't get in line, and started making problems, Ainge should have shipped them out for guys that would get with the program.

Ainge tried to placate both Kyrie and the younger players, which clearly was the wrong move. He should have done more to placate Kyrie. Instead Kyrie was left with the impression the team wasn't fully committed to him. When you couple that with the shameful way the local media and fans treated him when things got rough, it's no surprise we ended up in the situation we did. The Celtics have no one but themselves to blame for losing Kyrie.

As for Al's leadership, he's simply just a lead by example type. He isn't the type to lead by his words. There's nothing wrong with that and shouldn't be something to condemn Al for.

Re: Horford’s leadership overrated
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2019, 12:15:40 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Kyrie is the only guy willing to call out his big-head teamamtes, Jaylen Brown for example, while AL can do nothing about it

That (calling out teammates in public) was an example of poor leadership on Kyrie's part, though and really has nothing to do with whether Al was a good leader or not.

We of course, have no real knowledge of what went on behind the scenes with the Cs this year.   Usually these things are highly nuanced and can't be boiled down to who was good/bad or right/wrong.  Group dynamics are often complex.

Regarding the thread topic:  All I know is that Al Horford has a heck of a reputation among players for being well-respected and thought of as a leader.  And a heck of a resume' to back it up.

Consider that he was the clear best player on two consecutive NCAA title winning teams.  Then consider that since he came to the NBA he has been in the playoffs in 11 of his 12 seasons and was the clear best player on all but a couple of those teams.  Six of those playoff runs have gone double-digit games deep.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Horford’s Leadership Overrated
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2019, 12:19:56 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Last years problems were an organizational failure.

Horford can't challenge a guy like Kyrie if the coach and management won't back him up. They clearly allowed him to do what he wanted because they were terrified he would leave. Arguing with the coach on the sideline, ignoring the play-calls, taking shots at teammates through the media, and being an over-all jerk with impunity.

It was the Celtics organization that made it "Kyrie's Team" and they paid the price.

The problem wasn't that they made it "Kyrie's team", which was 100% the right thing to do. The problem was they didn't follow through and stay consistent with that plan. When guys like Brown and Rozier demonstrated they couldn't get in line, and started making problems, Ainge should have shipped them out for guys that would get with the program.

Ainge tried to placate both Kyrie and the younger players, which clearly was the wrong move. He should have done more to placate Kyrie. Instead Kyrie was left with the impression the team wasn't fully committed to him. When you couple that with the shameful way the local media and fans treated him when things got rough, it's no surprise we ended up in the situation we did. The Celtics have no one but themselves to blame for losing Kyrie.

As for Al's leadership, he's simply just a lead by example type. He isn't the type to lead by his words. There's nothing wrong with that and shouldn't be something to condemn Al for.

Maybe the “get with the Kyrie program” wasn’t the best one for the franchise.

He had problems with, at minimum, Brown, Rozier, Tatum and Hayward, and clashed with Stevens. That’s after ghosting his Cleveland teammates during his last year there.

The guy is an immature flake. Placating him would result in us looking like the Lebron Cavs, without the title.

He’s a great player, but he’s the one who needs to get with the program.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Horford’s Leadership Overrated
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2019, 12:40:23 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Last years problems were an organizational failure.

Horford can't challenge a guy like Kyrie if the coach and management won't back him up. They clearly allowed him to do what he wanted because they were terrified he would leave. Arguing with the coach on the sideline, ignoring the play-calls, taking shots at teammates through the media, and being an over-all jerk with impunity.

It was the Celtics organization that made it "Kyrie's Team" and they paid the price.

The problem wasn't that they made it "Kyrie's team", which was 100% the right thing to do. The problem was they didn't follow through and stay consistent with that plan. When guys like Brown and Rozier demonstrated they couldn't get in line, and started making problems, Ainge should have shipped them out for guys that would get with the program.

Ainge tried to placate both Kyrie and the younger players, which clearly was the wrong move. He should have done more to placate Kyrie. Instead Kyrie was left with the impression the team wasn't fully committed to him. When you couple that with the shameful way the local media and fans treated him when things got rough, it's no surprise we ended up in the situation we did. The Celtics have no one but themselves to blame for losing Kyrie.

As for Al's leadership, he's simply just a lead by example type. He isn't the type to lead by his words. There's nothing wrong with that and shouldn't be something to condemn Al for.

Maybe the “get with the Kyrie program” wasn’t the best one for the franchise.

He had problems with, at minimum, Brown, Rozier, Tatum and Hayward, and clashed with Stevens. That’s after ghosting his Cleveland teammates during his last year there.

The guy is an immature flake. Placating him would result in us looking like the Lebron Cavs, without the title.

He’s a great player, but he’s the one who needs to get with the program.

Kyrie and Tatum were probably the two closest guys in the team. Those two seemed to get along great. 

Kyrie's issues seemed to be primarily with Rozier, Brown, and Stevens. The team would have been much better off getting rid of them.

Instead, we chased off our best player, and in the process caused anyone worth their salt to want nothing to do with this franchise right now.

This team would be in a much better place right now if they had done a better job of demonstrating to the stars of this league we knew how to properly appreciate top talent.

Re: Horford’s Leadership Overrated
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2019, 01:04:18 PM »

Offline Pvictor11

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Last years problems were an organizational failure.

Horford can't challenge a guy like Kyrie if the coach and management won't back him up. They clearly allowed him to do what he wanted because they were terrified he would leave. Arguing with the coach on the sideline, ignoring the play-calls, taking shots at teammates through the media, and being an over-all jerk with impunity.

It was the Celtics organization that made it "Kyrie's Team" and they paid the price.

The problem wasn't that they made it "Kyrie's team", which was 100% the right thing to do. The problem was they didn't follow through and stay consistent with that plan. When guys like Brown and Rozier demonstrated they couldn't get in line, and started making problems, Ainge should have shipped them out for guys that would get with the program.

Ainge tried to placate both Kyrie and the younger players, which clearly was the wrong move. He should have done more to placate Kyrie. Instead Kyrie was left with the impression the team wasn't fully committed to him. When you couple that with the shameful way the local media and fans treated him when things got rough, it's no surprise we ended up in the situation we did. The Celtics have no one but themselves to blame for losing Kyrie.

As for Al's leadership, he's simply just a lead by example type. He isn't the type to lead by his words. There's nothing wrong with that and shouldn't be something to condemn Al for.

Maybe the “get with the Kyrie program” wasn’t the best one for the franchise.

He had problems with, at minimum, Brown, Rozier, Tatum and Hayward, and clashed with Stevens. That’s after ghosting his Cleveland teammates during his last year there.

The guy is an immature flake. Placating him would result in us looking like the Lebron Cavs, without the title.

He’s a great player, but he’s the one who needs to get with the program.

Kyrie and Tatum were probably the two closest guys in the team. Those two seemed to get along great. 

Kyrie's issues seemed to be primarily with Rozier, Brown, and Stevens. The team would have been much better off getting rid of them.

Instead, we chased off our best player, and in the process caused anyone worth their salt to want nothing to do with this franchise right now.

This team would be in a much better place right now if they had done a better job of demonstrating to the stars of this league we knew how to properly appreciate top talent.
I don't think we should bend over to any player in the league, specially Kyrie Irving, who is not even the type of Superstar that makes you an instant contender (Lebron, Leonard, Durant). This is the Boston Celtics, not the Cleveland Cavaliers.
I hate this narrative that in the new NBA teams have to start treating the star players like divas.
I much rather build a organization culture like the Spurs and be relevant for 10 or 20 years with an established foundation than "buy" a championship contending team that lasts for 2 or 4 years, like the Heat and the Cavs of the last decade.
Brazilian Celtic Fan!

Re: Horford’s leadership overrated
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2019, 06:42:18 PM »

Offline JAH1892

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I still don’t get how people can rave over a 13.5 point guy on $28m/30m and isn’t a defensive monster. I dunno, go all in on the young guns

Horford is the “lead by example, work with the young guys, give the occasional rallying speech”.

He’s not going to be able to fix guys with major attitude problems. Some groups just have horrible chemistry. James Jones is a tremendous leader, yet the Cavs had season long chemistry issues his last year.  Andre Iguodala is a great leader, but Durant and Greene still clashed.

Even a guy like KG couldn’t keep Ray and Rondo on the same page. Eventually, there was a quasi-mutiny between young guys and vets.

Horford did his job, we just had too many guys with conflicting goals.

Re: Horford’s leadership overrated
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2019, 06:45:00 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I still don’t get how people can rave over a 13.5 point guy on $28m/30m and isn’t a defensive monster. I dunno, go all in on the young guns

Horford is the “lead by example, work with the young guys, give the occasional rallying speech”.

He’s not going to be able to fix guys with major attitude problems. Some groups just have horrible chemistry. James Jones is a tremendous leader, yet the Cavs had season long chemistry issues his last year.  Andre Iguodala is a great leader, but Durant and Greene still clashed.

Even a guy like KG couldn’t keep Ray and Rondo on the same page. Eventually, there was a quasi-mutiny between young guys and vets.

Horford did his job, we just had too many guys with conflicting goals.

Horford is a defensive monster.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Horford’s Leadership Overrated
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2019, 06:49:48 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Last years problems were an organizational failure.

Horford can't challenge a guy like Kyrie if the coach and management won't back him up. They clearly allowed him to do what he wanted because they were terrified he would leave. Arguing with the coach on the sideline, ignoring the play-calls, taking shots at teammates through the media, and being an over-all jerk with impunity.

It was the Celtics organization that made it "Kyrie's Team" and they paid the price.

The problem wasn't that they made it "Kyrie's team", which was 100% the right thing to do. The problem was they didn't follow through and stay consistent with that plan. When guys like Brown and Rozier demonstrated they couldn't get in line, and started making problems, Ainge should have shipped them out for guys that would get with the program.

Ainge tried to placate both Kyrie and the younger players, which clearly was the wrong move. He should have done more to placate Kyrie. Instead Kyrie was left with the impression the team wasn't fully committed to him. When you couple that with the shameful way the local media and fans treated him when things got rough, it's no surprise we ended up in the situation we did. The Celtics have no one but themselves to blame for losing Kyrie.

As for Al's leadership, he's simply just a lead by example type. He isn't the type to lead by his words. There's nothing wrong with that and shouldn't be something to condemn Al for.

Maybe the “get with the Kyrie program” wasn’t the best one for the franchise.

He had problems with, at minimum, Brown, Rozier, Tatum and Hayward, and clashed with Stevens. That’s after ghosting his Cleveland teammates during his last year there.

The guy is an immature flake. Placating him would result in us looking like the Lebron Cavs, without the title.

He’s a great player, but he’s the one who needs to get with the program.

Kyrie and Tatum were probably the two closest guys in the team. Those two seemed to get along great. 

Kyrie's issues seemed to be primarily with Rozier, Brown, and Stevens. The team would have been much better off getting rid of them.

Instead, we chased off our best player, and in the process caused anyone worth their salt to want nothing to do with this franchise right now.

This team would be in a much better place right now if they had done a better job of demonstrating to the stars of this league we knew how to properly appreciate top talent.

There have been multiple reports of a rift between Tatum and Kyrie lately.

Quote
"His (Irving’s) relationship with the young players on the roster was awful. Jaylen Brown, he was probably the worst with. I don’t think it was great with Jayson Tatum, and it was awful with Terry Rozier because Terry was supplanted at a position he thought he did enough to win. That created a pretty nasty atmosphere. Kyrie’s leadership skills were lacking, and he failed at it.

Other reports that Kyrie was “sonning” Tatum and purposefully keeping him in check.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes