Smart vs Schroder

[Vermont Green]

I don’t think it’s an accident this comes up after last night’s game.

Schroder scored last night and people are feeling good about him again. But the reason he scored was that he hit his 3s - he went 4-5. Of course, Smart has nights like that too, but nobody’s fooled into thinking MS is a reliable 3-point shooter.  DS is just a tick better than Smart from 3; he had one of those games. I’m glad for it but it doesn’t tell me who he is as a player.

What about the rest of his game? Not great. I see people writing he makes the offense go. He had 3 assists and two turnovers. For a point guard, that is very bad. There wasn’t anything else special about his decisionmaking, and he made a bunch of bad plays especially in the 2d quarter. Missing cuts and cutting into the wrong area. The Js had it last night, and the guys who helped them most were Al and Rob.

Bottom line, if someone can show us the splits when he plays with the starters minus Smart and they look good I would have to take another look, but from where I sit he’s makes the team offense bad, is a minus defender, and he can’t be gone soon enough.

I agree with this.  Smart has the best +/- on the team (ooops, actually now Tatum and Brown are ahead of him).  Yeah, I know, +/- is not the end all but it does indicate that the team plays well when Smart is on the court.  This idea that we need a Rondo type PG has really taken hold here.  I personally don't see it.  Smart is fine, not a star but fine and certainly not "the problem".

Schroeder provides a nice change of pace to Smart.  Can create his own offense a little more which is especially helpful with bench units (not many on our bench can do that) but I don't see Schroeder driving the starters when he is in that role.  He actually dribbles around too much in my view.

For the record, Schroeder has only been on the court with Tatum, Brown, Horford, RWill for 14 min and in that time the team is +25.  That is too small a sample size but it is a good result.  Smart with the other 4 starters is +51 in 145 minutes.

Individually, Smart is +105 (1294 min), Schroeder is +70 (1107 min).

[Indocelts]

We really need a PG who can penetrate and split the defense. Only Schroder can do it easily, and he is almost unstoppable driving to the basket. When both Jays are having a bad night we can rely on Schroder to give us some baskets.

It’s hard for me to like Smart as a PG. For every 1 good game that he had he would have 2 bad nights with his shooting deficiency, dumb fouls or hero balls. The current NBA favors offense over defense, so a player who can’t shoot is a liability.

[Vermont Green]

We really need a PG who can penetrate and split the defense. Only Schroder can do it easily, and he is almost unstoppable driving to the basket. When both Jays are having a bad night we can rely on Schroder to give us some baskets.

It’s hard for me to like Smart as a PG. For every 1 good game that he had he would have 2 bad nights with his shooting deficiency, dumb fouls or hero balls. The current NBA favors offense over defense, so a player who can’t shoot is a liability.

Why do we need that?  Why can't Tatum or Brown split the defense (they do it all the time)?  I don't understand  why this is a big deal

[td450]

Trick question. Smart and Schroder have their strengths and differences but both fail to fit for the same reasons.

Both walk the ball up the floor and slow down ball movement in the half court, both lack the game management and decision making skills for a top tier team, and both are inefficient scorers.

We do not need a star at point, but we do need a player who adds playmaking, movement and disciplined decision making. Keeping either guy as a starting point means we stay an average team.

[wdleehi]

Smart


Schroder is a small SG that can pernitrate.   He does not run an offense that helps Tatum and Brown. 


There is a reason he wasn't closing a game even when Smart was out.   


Schroder is a useful player, but a terrible fit for what the Celtics need. 

[seancally]

I don’t love either as the lead PG. Off the bench or as the second guard in a lineup I prefer Smart. Schroeder fills a scoring need but I hate what he does to the offense. He’s a black hole and really calls his number too often. He’s a good player and has helped this team but I really would rather a new, proper PG to start with the Jays and Timelord.

[jbpats]

It's kind of easy to start a poll like this after Schroder arguably plays one of his strongest games in a Celtics uniform.

What I agree with is we definitely play better when Schroder starts at PG. Marcus is a liability on the offensive end and his defensive intensity, while some of the best in the league, does not compensate for the risk he is on the other end of the court.

I also think the Jay's have had enough of Marcus. It's pretty apparent with all thats gone on over the last few seasons.

Ideally we trade both, we won't be able to resign Schroder, nor do I think we should for 20/mil season. I also think the team needs a shakeup and the best shakeup we can do is getting rid of Smart.

I don't think we can get as much of an impact player in return for either guy or for both so it's really a tough situation.

[angryguy77]

Smart plays like a moron. Makes good plays then follows up with ill advised shots. Can't stand him.

[Atzar]

It's kind of easy to start a poll like this after Schroder arguably plays one of his strongest games in a Celtics uniform.

What I agree with is we definitely play better when Schroder starts at PG. Marcus is a liability on the offensive end and his defensive intensity, while some of the best in the league, does not compensate for the risk he is on the other end of the court.

I also think the Jay's have had enough of Marcus. It's pretty apparent with all thats gone on over the last few seasons.

Ideally we trade both, we won't be able to resign Schroder, nor do I think we should for 20/mil season. I also think the team needs a shakeup and the best shakeup we can do is getting rid of Smart.

I don't think we can get as much of an impact player in return for either guy or for both so it's really a tough situation.

Can we leave stuff like the bolded out of this?  That's a guess at best and projection at worst.  It's easy enough to build an argument for either of these players without resorting to armchair psych evaluations. 

[jbpats]

It's kind of easy to start a poll like this after Schroder arguably plays one of his strongest games in a Celtics uniform.

What I agree with is we definitely play better when Schroder starts at PG. Marcus is a liability on the offensive end and his defensive intensity, while some of the best in the league, does not compensate for the risk he is on the other end of the court.

I also think the Jay's have had enough of Marcus. It's pretty apparent with all thats gone on over the last few seasons.

Ideally we trade both, we won't be able to resign Schroder, nor do I think we should for 20/mil season. I also think the team needs a shakeup and the best shakeup we can do is getting rid of Smart.

I don't think we can get as much of an impact player in return for either guy or for both so it's really a tough situation.

Can we leave stuff like the bolded out of this?  That's a guess at best and projection at worst.  It's easy enough to build an argument for either of these players without resorting to armchair psych evaluations.

Sorry but no.. it's relevant and there is evidence that is true

Two examples alone:
Last year - Smart and Brown got in a heated locker room confrontation and had to be separated by teammates
This year Smart calling out the jays for not passing the ball resulting in a players only meeting just a few weeks into the season

[Atzar]

It's kind of easy to start a poll like this after Schroder arguably plays one of his strongest games in a Celtics uniform.

What I agree with is we definitely play better when Schroder starts at PG. Marcus is a liability on the offensive end and his defensive intensity, while some of the best in the league, does not compensate for the risk he is on the other end of the court.

I also think the Jay's have had enough of Marcus. It's pretty apparent with all thats gone on over the last few seasons.

Ideally we trade both, we won't be able to resign Schroder, nor do I think we should for 20/mil season. I also think the team needs a shakeup and the best shakeup we can do is getting rid of Smart.

I don't think we can get as much of an impact player in return for either guy or for both so it's really a tough situation.

Can we leave stuff like the bolded out of this?  That's a guess at best and projection at worst.  It's easy enough to build an argument for either of these players without resorting to armchair psych evaluations.

Sorry but no.. it's relevant and there is evidence that is true

Two examples alone:
Last year - Smart and Brown got in a heated locker room confrontation and had to be separated by teammates
This year Smart calling out the jays for not passing the ball resulting in a players only meeting just a few weeks into the season

Again:  this is armchair psychology.  You're using two instances (while ignoring the numerous examples to the contrary, I might add) to act like you understand the entire dynamic between the Tatum, Brown, and Smart.  This is a waste of time. 

I agree with most of the other points you made, by the way.  You just lose me with this stuff.  They might all actively hate each other, or maybe they're just teammates who care about winning and sometimes get too hot after stretches of bad basketball.  We, as fans, don't have nearly enough access to tell either way. 

[Moranis]

We can’t afford Schroder going forward, but I’d prefer him.

Is there any team out there other than Det that can really pay him, though? Looks like everyone else is over the cap next season.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2022/

There are plenty of teams with projected cap space. Someone will pay him. Just look at  what Evan Fournier got last summer.

Evan Fournier made sense for the Knicks, though. He’s a starter for them and they needed the scoring. Not seeing many teams with cap space that are in need of a starting PG. Maybe the Cavs, but they seemed to be rolling with Rubio running the offense.

They also have Garland and Sexton

And let's remember, no one paid Schroder last summer and I'm not sure much has changed.

[todd_days_41]

If this poll had a "C) neither" option, it would dominate the other two. One guy's out of here at season's end, and one guy isn't a PG and has the ball in his hands too much for a poor shooter.

We need a legit PG on this team (and no, PP doesn't count).

[jbpats]

It's kind of easy to start a poll like this after Schroder arguably plays one of his strongest games in a Celtics uniform.

What I agree with is we definitely play better when Schroder starts at PG. Marcus is a liability on the offensive end and his defensive intensity, while some of the best in the league, does not compensate for the risk he is on the other end of the court.

I also think the Jay's have had enough of Marcus. It's pretty apparent with all thats gone on over the last few seasons.

Ideally we trade both, we won't be able to resign Schroder, nor do I think we should for 20/mil season. I also think the team needs a shakeup and the best shakeup we can do is getting rid of Smart.

I don't think we can get as much of an impact player in return for either guy or for both so it's really a tough situation.

Can we leave stuff like the bolded out of this?  That's a guess at best and projection at worst.  It's easy enough to build an argument for either of these players without resorting to armchair psych evaluations.

Sorry but no.. it's relevant and there is evidence that is true

Two examples alone:
Last year - Smart and Brown got in a heated locker room confrontation and had to be separated by teammates
This year Smart calling out the jays for not passing the ball resulting in a players only meeting just a few weeks into the season

Again:  this is armchair psychology.  You're using two instances (while ignoring the numerous examples to the contrary, I might add) to act like you understand the entire dynamic between the Tatum, Brown, and Smart.  This is a waste of time. 

I agree with most of the other points you made, by the way.  You just lose me with this stuff.  They might all actively hate each other, or maybe they're just teammates who care about winning and sometimes get too hot after stretches of bad basketball.  We, as fans, don't have nearly enough access to tell either way.

TP I get your point and retract my statement.

[Atzar]

It's kind of easy to start a poll like this after Schroder arguably plays one of his strongest games in a Celtics uniform.

What I agree with is we definitely play better when Schroder starts at PG. Marcus is a liability on the offensive end and his defensive intensity, while some of the best in the league, does not compensate for the risk he is on the other end of the court.

I also think the Jay's have had enough of Marcus. It's pretty apparent with all thats gone on over the last few seasons.

Ideally we trade both, we won't be able to resign Schroder, nor do I think we should for 20/mil season. I also think the team needs a shakeup and the best shakeup we can do is getting rid of Smart.

I don't think we can get as much of an impact player in return for either guy or for both so it's really a tough situation.

Can we leave stuff like the bolded out of this?  That's a guess at best and projection at worst.  It's easy enough to build an argument for either of these players without resorting to armchair psych evaluations.

Sorry but no.. it's relevant and there is evidence that is true

Two examples alone:
Last year - Smart and Brown got in a heated locker room confrontation and had to be separated by teammates
This year Smart calling out the jays for not passing the ball resulting in a players only meeting just a few weeks into the season

Again:  this is armchair psychology.  You're using two instances (while ignoring the numerous examples to the contrary, I might add) to act like you understand the entire dynamic between the Tatum, Brown, and Smart.  This is a waste of time. 

I agree with most of the other points you made, by the way.  You just lose me with this stuff.  They might all actively hate each other, or maybe they're just teammates who care about winning and sometimes get too hot after stretches of bad basketball.  We, as fans, don't have nearly enough access to tell either way.

TP I get your point and retract my statement.

TP back at you.