ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel

[crimson_stallion]

I think Wiggins over Noel is a no brainer...

Wiggins is a two-way player with the potential to be a Paul George type.  Noel on the other hand is a pure defensive minded big with almost no offensive game and horribly poor basketball IQ.

Not say Noel isn't a nice player, but can't think of many teams that would take him over Wiggins right now

[Moranis]

I think Wiggins over Noel is a no brainer...

Wiggins is a two-way player with the potential to be a Paul George type.  Noel on the other hand is a pure defensive minded big with almost no offensive game and horribly poor basketball IQ.

Not say Noel isn't a nice player, but can't think of many teams that would take him over Wiggins right now

but that isn't how you pick a rookie of the year.  I mean I think a lot of people would take Embiid and Parker over both those guys as well and neither one of them is winning rookie of the year.  Noel is in the top ten in all of the NBA in two major statistical categories.  His second half (after recovering from his knee injury) has been by far the best of any rookie (and frankly Mirotic is second in that category). 

[D.o.s.]

Also worth noting that offense and basic box score numbers determines Rookie of the Year awards nine point nine times out of ten.

[GetLucky]

Wiggins and Noel are the only rookies who I watch play and say, "They're going to be special." They both have freakish measurables for their positions, and, quite frankly, they're more skilled than I anticipated, Wiggins specifically. Smart has his moments, but they're basketball IQ or effort moments, not necessarily athleticism or fluidity.

In my opinion, that is what makes LeBron so special (as much as I hate to say it). Even as a rookie, he flashed freak athleticism on offense (like Wiggins), strength (like Smart), court awareness (with a special pass, like Smart every once in a while- think the behind-the-back one in DC), defense (like Wiggins as a wing more than Noel, but Noel is clearly a special defender. And LeBron did this without going to college to learn technique!), and ball-handling (like none of them so far, I'm thinking rookie Rondo but I'm not sure). That's what makes LeBron so special. While we laud Wiggins or Noel or Rondo for having two or three incredibly rare talents, LeBron has nearly all of them with the measurables to go with it!
(I still think he took PEDs, though )

[celticsclay]

Let's not throw rocks in glass houses.  Boston overhypes the crap out of their rookies as well.

Here's how NBA.com recently ranked the rooks: http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/01/2014-15-rookie-ladder-week-22/index.html

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3 - Elfrid Peyton
#4 - Nikola Mirotic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Jusuf Nurkic
#7 - Marcus Smart

Seems accurate.

And another from last week:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2415391-2015-nba-rookie-ladder-roy-race-heating-up-as-season-winds-down/page/11

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3A - Elfrid Payton
#3B - Nikola Mirtic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Langson Galloway
#7 - Marcus Smart

lol... Galloway over Smart caught me a bit by surprise.  Funny. 

At least this proves I'm not alone in picking Noel.

What are these based on present performance? Future value? Nurkic for the last month plus has been averaging almost as many fouls as rebounds and cant seem to stay on the court for more than 20 minutes a night. If we are doing performance to day hard to see him being very high.

I also tend to side with the anti-clarkson people. Being on the west coast and the Lakers being one of the teams that are always on national tv for some reason. I get to see more of their games than I would ever want to. Like the 76ers, a lot of their games are absolute dumpster fires where they are down 30 points and a team is not playing its' starters in the second half. For example, Clarkson recently "exploded" for 26 points according to the ESPN fantasy site against Portland. However, if you watched that game Portland took a double digit lead in the first quarter that it never really relinquished and he spent a lot of the time being guarded by Blake. He had a lot of his points at the end of the second and third quarters against backups and the Lakers as a team only scored 12 points in the first quarter. This is just one game, but it happens a lot with them. Last night they were down 20+ at halftime again (although clarkson didn't pad his stats). I hope we can all at least acknowledge that if Smart was in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway his stats would look a heck of a lot different than playing in CBS system.

Its mildly disappointing that they have writers at these sites that don't recognize that either... Galloway in particular will not be in the NBA in a few years so having him as one of the best rookies says a lot about that writer talent/evaluator?...

I agree.  My only question, however, is would he average more points but on the same percentages?  That's what I like about Clarkson.  He's just a really good player who at least knows his strengths and plays to them.  Whether that's due to the difference in offensive philosophies between Byron Scott and CBS, idk, but at least Clarkson can get to the basket and make his free throws.

Smart IS in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway.  His team just happens to be winning some games.   Smart thus far has proven to be a bad offensive player.  He can't just go to a bad team and put up 20 points per game... he's ON a bad team.  They just happen to be winning a bit more. 

That takes nothing away from Smart's defense.  There's a reason why both of those sites rank him 7th out of all the rookies.  Kid can play defense.

You do usually way better than that argument. We cannot really compare the bottom 4 teams this year to the Celtics. If we are a bad NBA team, those 4 are a step or 2 bellow bad.

We also happen to be the only team with a competent coach (with the Brown exception, maybe).  And we are the only team of the group trying to win, thus trying to use the most efficient options on offense we have. Smart is obviously not among those yet.

Smart has the by far lowest usage of the Noel, Wiggins, Clarkson, Galloway group. That is fine - the Cs and their coach have been trying to play competent basketball all year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=smartma01&y2=2015&p2=gallola01&y3=2015&p3=noelne01&y4=2015&p4=wiggian01&y5=2015&p5=clarkjo01&p6=#totals::none

Meanwhile Noel has been having a prep camp in real games on jump hooks and post moves all year.

I am not saying Smart is better offensively than this group. He may or may not be. He is not efficient with his fewer touches (well, neither are Noel and Gallo). All I am saying is their situations are too different to tell.

TP for putting more meat behind the argument. Sometimes when things are so obvious I lose the energy to try and put the stats to point it out, especially knowing that doing so won't even change the person's opinion. After someone was arguing for a few days that the Philly Bench players were all quality NBA rotation players I may have temporarily lost some of my mustard.

[LarBrd33]

Let's not throw rocks in glass houses.  Boston overhypes the crap out of their rookies as well.

Here's how NBA.com recently ranked the rooks: http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/01/2014-15-rookie-ladder-week-22/index.html

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3 - Elfrid Peyton
#4 - Nikola Mirotic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Jusuf Nurkic
#7 - Marcus Smart

Seems accurate.

And another from last week:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2415391-2015-nba-rookie-ladder-roy-race-heating-up-as-season-winds-down/page/11

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3A - Elfrid Payton
#3B - Nikola Mirtic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Langson Galloway
#7 - Marcus Smart

lol... Galloway over Smart caught me a bit by surprise.  Funny. 

At least this proves I'm not alone in picking Noel.

What are these based on present performance? Future value? Nurkic for the last month plus has been averaging almost as many fouls as rebounds and cant seem to stay on the court for more than 20 minutes a night. If we are doing performance to day hard to see him being very high.

I also tend to side with the anti-clarkson people. Being on the west coast and the Lakers being one of the teams that are always on national tv for some reason. I get to see more of their games than I would ever want to. Like the 76ers, a lot of their games are absolute dumpster fires where they are down 30 points and a team is not playing its' starters in the second half. For example, Clarkson recently "exploded" for 26 points according to the ESPN fantasy site against Portland. However, if you watched that game Portland took a double digit lead in the first quarter that it never really relinquished and he spent a lot of the time being guarded by Blake. He had a lot of his points at the end of the second and third quarters against backups and the Lakers as a team only scored 12 points in the first quarter. This is just one game, but it happens a lot with them. Last night they were down 20+ at halftime again (although clarkson didn't pad his stats). I hope we can all at least acknowledge that if Smart was in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway his stats would look a heck of a lot different than playing in CBS system.

Its mildly disappointing that they have writers at these sites that don't recognize that either... Galloway in particular will not be in the NBA in a few years so having him as one of the best rookies says a lot about that writer talent/evaluator?...

I agree.  My only question, however, is would he average more points but on the same percentages?  That's what I like about Clarkson.  He's just a really good player who at least knows his strengths and plays to them.  Whether that's due to the difference in offensive philosophies between Byron Scott and CBS, idk, but at least Clarkson can get to the basket and make his free throws.

Smart IS in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway.  His team just happens to be winning some games.   Smart thus far has proven to be a bad offensive player.  He can't just go to a bad team and put up 20 points per game... he's ON a bad team.  They just happen to be winning a bit more. 

That takes nothing away from Smart's defense.  There's a reason why both of those sites rank him 7th out of all the rookies.  Kid can play defense.

You do usually way better than that argument. We cannot really compare the bottom 4 teams this year to the Celtics. If we are a bad NBA team, those 4 are a step or 2 bellow bad.

We also happen to be the only team with a competent coach (with the Brown exception, maybe).  And we are the only team of the group trying to win, thus trying to use the most efficient options on offense we have. Smart is obviously not among those yet.

Smart has the by far lowest usage of the Noel, Wiggins, Clarkson, Galloway group. That is fine - the Cs and their coach have been trying to play competent basketball all year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=smartma01&y2=2015&p2=gallola01&y3=2015&p3=noelne01&y4=2015&p4=wiggian01&y5=2015&p5=clarkjo01&p6=#totals::none

Meanwhile Noel has been having a prep camp in real games on jump hooks and post moves all year.

I am not saying Smart is better offensively than this group. He may or may not be. He is not efficient with his fewer touches (well, neither are Noel and Gallo). All I am saying is their situations are too different to tell.

Smart has low usage, because he's not a good player right now.   He's a terrible offensive player who is an exceptional defender.

Out of the guys that keep getting mentioned (Smart, Noel, Clarkson, Galloway), the only one that would actually start for a contender is Noel.  You can put Noel on basically any team and he'll make a major impact, because of the importance of defensive bigs in this game.   The rest of the guys would probably be coming off the bench.  While Boston has a better record than those teams, the situations aren't much different.   They are all rebuilding bottom-feeder teams made up of prospects and role players.  They all have player development as a priority.   Yeah, Boston has found a way to win some games, but it's not a good team.  We're finishing this season below .500 and are like a half game above the team with the 9th worst record in the league.  Smart is getting minutes with an eye towards the future.  If he was capable of dropping 20 a night, it would be happening already.

Since the all-star break, Clarkson has averaged 16 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds on 49% shooting.  Smart has averaged 9 points, 2.6 assists, 4 rebounds on 35% shooting (31% from three and 65% from the line).  That's Ricky Rubio territory.  And if you think his efficiency would improve on a bad team with worse teammates, you don't understand how basketball works.

[MBunge]

Let's not throw rocks in glass houses.  Boston overhypes the crap out of their rookies as well.

Here's how NBA.com recently ranked the rooks: http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/01/2014-15-rookie-ladder-week-22/index.html

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3 - Elfrid Peyton
#4 - Nikola Mirotic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Jusuf Nurkic
#7 - Marcus Smart

Seems accurate.

And another from last week:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2415391-2015-nba-rookie-ladder-roy-race-heating-up-as-season-winds-down/page/11

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3A - Elfrid Payton
#3B - Nikola Mirtic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Langson Galloway
#7 - Marcus Smart

lol... Galloway over Smart caught me a bit by surprise.  Funny. 

At least this proves I'm not alone in picking Noel.

What are these based on present performance? Future value? Nurkic for the last month plus has been averaging almost as many fouls as rebounds and cant seem to stay on the court for more than 20 minutes a night. If we are doing performance to day hard to see him being very high.

I also tend to side with the anti-clarkson people. Being on the west coast and the Lakers being one of the teams that are always on national tv for some reason. I get to see more of their games than I would ever want to. Like the 76ers, a lot of their games are absolute dumpster fires where they are down 30 points and a team is not playing its' starters in the second half. For example, Clarkson recently "exploded" for 26 points according to the ESPN fantasy site against Portland. However, if you watched that game Portland took a double digit lead in the first quarter that it never really relinquished and he spent a lot of the time being guarded by Blake. He had a lot of his points at the end of the second and third quarters against backups and the Lakers as a team only scored 12 points in the first quarter. This is just one game, but it happens a lot with them. Last night they were down 20+ at halftime again (although clarkson didn't pad his stats). I hope we can all at least acknowledge that if Smart was in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway his stats would look a heck of a lot different than playing in CBS system.

Its mildly disappointing that they have writers at these sites that don't recognize that either... Galloway in particular will not be in the NBA in a few years so having him as one of the best rookies says a lot about that writer talent/evaluator?...

I agree.  My only question, however, is would he average more points but on the same percentages?  That's what I like about Clarkson.  He's just a really good player who at least knows his strengths and plays to them.  Whether that's due to the difference in offensive philosophies between Byron Scott and CBS, idk, but at least Clarkson can get to the basket and make his free throws.

Smart IS in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway.  His team just happens to be winning some games.   Smart thus far has proven to be a bad offensive player.  He can't just go to a bad team and put up 20 points per game... he's ON a bad team.  They just happen to be winning a bit more. 

That takes nothing away from Smart's defense.  There's a reason why both of those sites rank him 7th out of all the rookies.  Kid can play defense.

You do usually way better than that argument. We cannot really compare the bottom 4 teams this year to the Celtics. If we are a bad NBA team, those 4 are a step or 2 bellow bad.

We also happen to be the only team with a competent coach (with the Brown exception, maybe).  And we are the only team of the group trying to win, thus trying to use the most efficient options on offense we have. Smart is obviously not among those yet.

Smart has the by far lowest usage of the Noel, Wiggins, Clarkson, Galloway group. That is fine - the Cs and their coach have been trying to play competent basketball all year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=smartma01&y2=2015&p2=gallola01&y3=2015&p3=noelne01&y4=2015&p4=wiggian01&y5=2015&p5=clarkjo01&p6=#totals::none

Meanwhile Noel has been having a prep camp in real games on jump hooks and post moves all year.

I am not saying Smart is better offensively than this group. He may or may not be. He is not efficient with his fewer touches (well, neither are Noel and Gallo). All I am saying is their situations are too different to tell.

Smart has low usage, because he's not a good player right now.   He's a terrible offensive player who is an exceptional defender.

Out of the guys that keep getting mentioned (Smart, Noel, Clarkson, Galloway), the only one that would actually start for a contender is Noel.  You can put Noel on basically any team and he'll make a major impact, because of the importance of defensive bigs in this game.   

No.  Put Noel on a contender and he'd seated on the bench because if he were playing in games where the other team was trying he would be getting regularly pantsed on defense and would be a MASSIVE weakness on offense.  On a top team, Noel would be getting more than garbage time but no more than Smart would probably receive.

The guy turns 21 years old next week.  A little perspective, please.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

Let's not throw rocks in glass houses.  Boston overhypes the crap out of their rookies as well.

Here's how NBA.com recently ranked the rooks: http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/01/2014-15-rookie-ladder-week-22/index.html

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3 - Elfrid Peyton
#4 - Nikola Mirotic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Jusuf Nurkic
#7 - Marcus Smart

Seems accurate.

And another from last week:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2415391-2015-nba-rookie-ladder-roy-race-heating-up-as-season-winds-down/page/11

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3A - Elfrid Payton
#3B - Nikola Mirtic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Langson Galloway
#7 - Marcus Smart

lol... Galloway over Smart caught me a bit by surprise.  Funny. 

At least this proves I'm not alone in picking Noel.

What are these based on present performance? Future value? Nurkic for the last month plus has been averaging almost as many fouls as rebounds and cant seem to stay on the court for more than 20 minutes a night. If we are doing performance to day hard to see him being very high.

I also tend to side with the anti-clarkson people. Being on the west coast and the Lakers being one of the teams that are always on national tv for some reason. I get to see more of their games than I would ever want to. Like the 76ers, a lot of their games are absolute dumpster fires where they are down 30 points and a team is not playing its' starters in the second half. For example, Clarkson recently "exploded" for 26 points according to the ESPN fantasy site against Portland. However, if you watched that game Portland took a double digit lead in the first quarter that it never really relinquished and he spent a lot of the time being guarded by Blake. He had a lot of his points at the end of the second and third quarters against backups and the Lakers as a team only scored 12 points in the first quarter. This is just one game, but it happens a lot with them. Last night they were down 20+ at halftime again (although clarkson didn't pad his stats). I hope we can all at least acknowledge that if Smart was in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway his stats would look a heck of a lot different than playing in CBS system.

Its mildly disappointing that they have writers at these sites that don't recognize that either... Galloway in particular will not be in the NBA in a few years so having him as one of the best rookies says a lot about that writer talent/evaluator?...

I agree.  My only question, however, is would he average more points but on the same percentages?  That's what I like about Clarkson.  He's just a really good player who at least knows his strengths and plays to them.  Whether that's due to the difference in offensive philosophies between Byron Scott and CBS, idk, but at least Clarkson can get to the basket and make his free throws.

Smart IS in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway.  His team just happens to be winning some games.   Smart thus far has proven to be a bad offensive player.  He can't just go to a bad team and put up 20 points per game... he's ON a bad team.  They just happen to be winning a bit more. 

That takes nothing away from Smart's defense.  There's a reason why both of those sites rank him 7th out of all the rookies.  Kid can play defense.

You do usually way better than that argument. We cannot really compare the bottom 4 teams this year to the Celtics. If we are a bad NBA team, those 4 are a step or 2 bellow bad.

We also happen to be the only team with a competent coach (with the Brown exception, maybe).  And we are the only team of the group trying to win, thus trying to use the most efficient options on offense we have. Smart is obviously not among those yet.

Smart has the by far lowest usage of the Noel, Wiggins, Clarkson, Galloway group. That is fine - the Cs and their coach have been trying to play competent basketball all year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=smartma01&y2=2015&p2=gallola01&y3=2015&p3=noelne01&y4=2015&p4=wiggian01&y5=2015&p5=clarkjo01&p6=#totals::none

Meanwhile Noel has been having a prep camp in real games on jump hooks and post moves all year.

I am not saying Smart is better offensively than this group. He may or may not be. He is not efficient with his fewer touches (well, neither are Noel and Gallo). All I am saying is their situations are too different to tell.

Smart has low usage, because he's not a good player right now.   He's a terrible offensive player who is an exceptional defender.

Out of the guys that keep getting mentioned (Smart, Noel, Clarkson, Galloway), the only one that would actually start for a contender is Noel.  You can put Noel on basically any team and he'll make a major impact, because of the importance of defensive bigs in this game.   

No.  Put Noel on a contender and he'd seated on the bench because if he were playing in games where the other team was trying he would be getting regularly pantsed on defense and would be a MASSIVE weakness on offense.  On a top team, Noel would be getting more than garbage time but no more than Smart would probably receive.

The guy turns 21 years old next week.  A little perspective, please.

Mike

Sorry, Mike... not true.  Noel is a top 5-10 defensive player in the league this year based on any statistical measure you can bring up.  He's made Philly a top 10 defensive team basically by himself.   He'd be getting minutes on pretty much any team that doesn't already have an all-star defensive big.  He's on a par with post-prime KG in terms of how he can impact the game without scoring a basket.

[MBunge]

Smart is getting minutes with an eye towards the future.  If he was capable of dropping 20 a night, it would be happening already.

And in the last decade, a total of three NBA rookies have averaged 20 pts a game.  Not three a season.  Out of the hundreds of rookies to enter the league over the past 10 years, only 3 averaged 20 pts a game their rookie year.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

Smart is getting minutes with an eye towards the future.  If he was capable of dropping 20 a night, it would be happening already.

And in the last decade, a total of three NBA rookies have averaged 20 pts a game.  Not three a season.  Out of the hundreds of rookies to enter the league over the past 10 years, only 3 averaged 20 pts a game their rookie year.

Mike

Right.  And if Smart was capable of putting up 16 points per night on 49% shooting (like Clarkson), it would be happening already. 

I do agree that bad systems can inflate stats.  It's not like I'm the one saying Clarkson is better than Smart (I'll leave that to NBA.com and other websites ranking rookies).  But using that as an excuse for Smart's offensive ineptness is silly.  Smart's a bad offensive player right now. 

As for Noel.  Do bad teams inflate defensive stats?  It's an interesting premise.  I've heard professional scouts talk about him on podcasts and they seem to think the opposite... putting talent next to Noel is only going to help him.   He's already an elite defensive big.  Should be interesting to see what happens with him long-term.

[celticsclay]

Let's not throw rocks in glass houses.  Boston overhypes the crap out of their rookies as well.

Here's how NBA.com recently ranked the rooks: http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/01/2014-15-rookie-ladder-week-22/index.html

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3 - Elfrid Peyton
#4 - Nikola Mirotic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Jusuf Nurkic
#7 - Marcus Smart

Seems accurate.

And another from last week:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2415391-2015-nba-rookie-ladder-roy-race-heating-up-as-season-winds-down/page/11

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3A - Elfrid Payton
#3B - Nikola Mirtic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Langson Galloway
#7 - Marcus Smart

lol... Galloway over Smart caught me a bit by surprise.  Funny. 

At least this proves I'm not alone in picking Noel.

What are these based on present performance? Future value? Nurkic for the last month plus has been averaging almost as many fouls as rebounds and cant seem to stay on the court for more than 20 minutes a night. If we are doing performance to day hard to see him being very high.

I also tend to side with the anti-clarkson people. Being on the west coast and the Lakers being one of the teams that are always on national tv for some reason. I get to see more of their games than I would ever want to. Like the 76ers, a lot of their games are absolute dumpster fires where they are down 30 points and a team is not playing its' starters in the second half. For example, Clarkson recently "exploded" for 26 points according to the ESPN fantasy site against Portland. However, if you watched that game Portland took a double digit lead in the first quarter that it never really relinquished and he spent a lot of the time being guarded by Blake. He had a lot of his points at the end of the second and third quarters against backups and the Lakers as a team only scored 12 points in the first quarter. This is just one game, but it happens a lot with them. Last night they were down 20+ at halftime again (although clarkson didn't pad his stats). I hope we can all at least acknowledge that if Smart was in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway his stats would look a heck of a lot different than playing in CBS system.

Its mildly disappointing that they have writers at these sites that don't recognize that either... Galloway in particular will not be in the NBA in a few years so having him as one of the best rookies says a lot about that writer talent/evaluator?...

I agree.  My only question, however, is would he average more points but on the same percentages?  That's what I like about Clarkson.  He's just a really good player who at least knows his strengths and plays to them.  Whether that's due to the difference in offensive philosophies between Byron Scott and CBS, idk, but at least Clarkson can get to the basket and make his free throws.

Smart IS in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway.  His team just happens to be winning some games.   Smart thus far has proven to be a bad offensive player.  He can't just go to a bad team and put up 20 points per game... he's ON a bad team.  They just happen to be winning a bit more. 

That takes nothing away from Smart's defense.  There's a reason why both of those sites rank him 7th out of all the rookies.  Kid can play defense.

You do usually way better than that argument. We cannot really compare the bottom 4 teams this year to the Celtics. If we are a bad NBA team, those 4 are a step or 2 bellow bad.

We also happen to be the only team with a competent coach (with the Brown exception, maybe).  And we are the only team of the group trying to win, thus trying to use the most efficient options on offense we have. Smart is obviously not among those yet.

Smart has the by far lowest usage of the Noel, Wiggins, Clarkson, Galloway group. That is fine - the Cs and their coach have been trying to play competent basketball all year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=smartma01&y2=2015&p2=gallola01&y3=2015&p3=noelne01&y4=2015&p4=wiggian01&y5=2015&p5=clarkjo01&p6=#totals::none

Meanwhile Noel has been having a prep camp in real games on jump hooks and post moves all year.

I am not saying Smart is better offensively than this group. He may or may not be. He is not efficient with his fewer touches (well, neither are Noel and Gallo). All I am saying is their situations are too different to tell.

Smart has low usage, because he's not a good player right now.   He's a terrible offensive player who is an exceptional defender.

Out of the guys that keep getting mentioned (Smart, Noel, Clarkson, Galloway), the only one that would actually start for a contender is Noel.  You can put Noel on basically any team and he'll make a major impact, because of the importance of defensive bigs in this game.   The rest of the guys would probably be coming off the bench.  While Boston has a better record than those teams, the situations aren't much different.   They are all rebuilding bottom-feeder teams made up of prospects and role players.  They all have player development as a priority.   Yeah, Boston has found a way to win some games, but it's not a good team.  We're finishing this season below .500 and are like a half game above the team with the 9th worst record in the league.  Smart is getting minutes with an eye towards the future.  If he was capable of dropping 20 a night, it would be happening already.

Since the all-star break, Clarkson has averaged 16 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds on 49% shooting.  Smart has averaged 9 points, 2.6 assists, 4 rebounds on 35% shooting (31% from three and 65% from the line).  That's Ricky Rubio territory.  And if you think his efficiency would improve on a bad team with worse teammates, you don't understand how basketball works.

Remember the time we all got wasted and ended up in rickey rubio territory?

[MBunge]

Let's not throw rocks in glass houses.  Boston overhypes the crap out of their rookies as well.

Here's how NBA.com recently ranked the rooks: http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/01/2014-15-rookie-ladder-week-22/index.html

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3 - Elfrid Peyton
#4 - Nikola Mirotic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Jusuf Nurkic
#7 - Marcus Smart

Seems accurate.

And another from last week:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2415391-2015-nba-rookie-ladder-roy-race-heating-up-as-season-winds-down/page/11

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3A - Elfrid Payton
#3B - Nikola Mirtic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Langson Galloway
#7 - Marcus Smart

lol... Galloway over Smart caught me a bit by surprise.  Funny. 

At least this proves I'm not alone in picking Noel.

What are these based on present performance? Future value? Nurkic for the last month plus has been averaging almost as many fouls as rebounds and cant seem to stay on the court for more than 20 minutes a night. If we are doing performance to day hard to see him being very high.

I also tend to side with the anti-clarkson people. Being on the west coast and the Lakers being one of the teams that are always on national tv for some reason. I get to see more of their games than I would ever want to. Like the 76ers, a lot of their games are absolute dumpster fires where they are down 30 points and a team is not playing its' starters in the second half. For example, Clarkson recently "exploded" for 26 points according to the ESPN fantasy site against Portland. However, if you watched that game Portland took a double digit lead in the first quarter that it never really relinquished and he spent a lot of the time being guarded by Blake. He had a lot of his points at the end of the second and third quarters against backups and the Lakers as a team only scored 12 points in the first quarter. This is just one game, but it happens a lot with them. Last night they were down 20+ at halftime again (although clarkson didn't pad his stats). I hope we can all at least acknowledge that if Smart was in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway his stats would look a heck of a lot different than playing in CBS system.

Its mildly disappointing that they have writers at these sites that don't recognize that either... Galloway in particular will not be in the NBA in a few years so having him as one of the best rookies says a lot about that writer talent/evaluator?...

I agree.  My only question, however, is would he average more points but on the same percentages?  That's what I like about Clarkson.  He's just a really good player who at least knows his strengths and plays to them.  Whether that's due to the difference in offensive philosophies between Byron Scott and CBS, idk, but at least Clarkson can get to the basket and make his free throws.

Smart IS in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway.  His team just happens to be winning some games.   Smart thus far has proven to be a bad offensive player.  He can't just go to a bad team and put up 20 points per game... he's ON a bad team.  They just happen to be winning a bit more. 

That takes nothing away from Smart's defense.  There's a reason why both of those sites rank him 7th out of all the rookies.  Kid can play defense.

You do usually way better than that argument. We cannot really compare the bottom 4 teams this year to the Celtics. If we are a bad NBA team, those 4 are a step or 2 bellow bad.

We also happen to be the only team with a competent coach (with the Brown exception, maybe).  And we are the only team of the group trying to win, thus trying to use the most efficient options on offense we have. Smart is obviously not among those yet.

Smart has the by far lowest usage of the Noel, Wiggins, Clarkson, Galloway group. That is fine - the Cs and their coach have been trying to play competent basketball all year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=smartma01&y2=2015&p2=gallola01&y3=2015&p3=noelne01&y4=2015&p4=wiggian01&y5=2015&p5=clarkjo01&p6=#totals::none

Meanwhile Noel has been having a prep camp in real games on jump hooks and post moves all year.

I am not saying Smart is better offensively than this group. He may or may not be. He is not efficient with his fewer touches (well, neither are Noel and Gallo). All I am saying is their situations are too different to tell.

Smart has low usage, because he's not a good player right now.   He's a terrible offensive player who is an exceptional defender.

Out of the guys that keep getting mentioned (Smart, Noel, Clarkson, Galloway), the only one that would actually start for a contender is Noel.  You can put Noel on basically any team and he'll make a major impact, because of the importance of defensive bigs in this game.   

No.  Put Noel on a contender and he'd seated on the bench because if he were playing in games where the other team was trying he would be getting regularly pantsed on defense and would be a MASSIVE weakness on offense.  On a top team, Noel would be getting more than garbage time but no more than Smart would probably receive.

The guy turns 21 years old next week.  A little perspective, please.

Mike

Sorry, Mike... not true.  Noel is a top 5-10 defensive player in the league this year based on any statistical measure you can bring up.  He's made Philly a top 10 defensive team basically by himself.   He'd be getting minutes on pretty much any team that doesn't already have an all-star defensive big.  He's on a par with post-prime KG in terms of how he can impact the game without scoring a basket.

Are those the same statistics that gave Brandan Wright one of the highest ranking PERs in the entire league?

Again, a little perspective.  If he's post-prime KG as a 20 year old rookie, what is he going to be when he's in his prime at 27-32?  Is the going to average a double-double in blocks and steals?

Mike

[manl_lui]

Smart is getting minutes with an eye towards the future.  If he was capable of dropping 20 a night, it would be happening already.

And in the last decade, a total of three NBA rookies have averaged 20 pts a game.  Not three a season.  Out of the hundreds of rookies to enter the league over the past 10 years, only 3 averaged 20 pts a game their rookie year.

Mike

I cheated - Blake Griffin (22.5 ppg), Tyreke Evans (20.1 ppg), Durant (20.3 ppg), LeBron James (20.9 ppg), and those are the rookies of the year

[MBunge]

Smart is getting minutes with an eye towards the future.  If he was capable of dropping 20 a night, it would be happening already.

And in the last decade, a total of three NBA rookies have averaged 20 pts a game.  Not three a season.  Out of the hundreds of rookies to enter the league over the past 10 years, only 3 averaged 20 pts a game their rookie year.

Mike

Right.  And if Smart was capable of putting up 16 points per night on 49% shooting (like Clarkson), it would be happening already. 

I'm confused.  Which Clarkson are we talking about?  Because Jordan Clarkson is averaging 11 points on 45% shooting.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

Let's not throw rocks in glass houses.  Boston overhypes the crap out of their rookies as well.

Here's how NBA.com recently ranked the rooks: http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/01/2014-15-rookie-ladder-week-22/index.html

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3 - Elfrid Peyton
#4 - Nikola Mirotic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Jusuf Nurkic
#7 - Marcus Smart

Seems accurate.

And another from last week:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2415391-2015-nba-rookie-ladder-roy-race-heating-up-as-season-winds-down/page/11

#1 - Nerlens Noel
#2 - Andrew Wiggins
#3A - Elfrid Payton
#3B - Nikola Mirtic
#5 - Jordan Clarkson
#6 - Langson Galloway
#7 - Marcus Smart

lol... Galloway over Smart caught me a bit by surprise.  Funny. 

At least this proves I'm not alone in picking Noel.

What are these based on present performance? Future value? Nurkic for the last month plus has been averaging almost as many fouls as rebounds and cant seem to stay on the court for more than 20 minutes a night. If we are doing performance to day hard to see him being very high.

I also tend to side with the anti-clarkson people. Being on the west coast and the Lakers being one of the teams that are always on national tv for some reason. I get to see more of their games than I would ever want to. Like the 76ers, a lot of their games are absolute dumpster fires where they are down 30 points and a team is not playing its' starters in the second half. For example, Clarkson recently "exploded" for 26 points according to the ESPN fantasy site against Portland. However, if you watched that game Portland took a double digit lead in the first quarter that it never really relinquished and he spent a lot of the time being guarded by Blake. He had a lot of his points at the end of the second and third quarters against backups and the Lakers as a team only scored 12 points in the first quarter. This is just one game, but it happens a lot with them. Last night they were down 20+ at halftime again (although clarkson didn't pad his stats). I hope we can all at least acknowledge that if Smart was in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway his stats would look a heck of a lot different than playing in CBS system.

Its mildly disappointing that they have writers at these sites that don't recognize that either... Galloway in particular will not be in the NBA in a few years so having him as one of the best rookies says a lot about that writer talent/evaluator?...

I agree.  My only question, however, is would he average more points but on the same percentages?  That's what I like about Clarkson.  He's just a really good player who at least knows his strengths and plays to them.  Whether that's due to the difference in offensive philosophies between Byron Scott and CBS, idk, but at least Clarkson can get to the basket and make his free throws.

Smart IS in a situation like Noel, Clarkson or Galloway.  His team just happens to be winning some games.   Smart thus far has proven to be a bad offensive player.  He can't just go to a bad team and put up 20 points per game... he's ON a bad team.  They just happen to be winning a bit more. 

That takes nothing away from Smart's defense.  There's a reason why both of those sites rank him 7th out of all the rookies.  Kid can play defense.

You do usually way better than that argument. We cannot really compare the bottom 4 teams this year to the Celtics. If we are a bad NBA team, those 4 are a step or 2 bellow bad.

We also happen to be the only team with a competent coach (with the Brown exception, maybe).  And we are the only team of the group trying to win, thus trying to use the most efficient options on offense we have. Smart is obviously not among those yet.

Smart has the by far lowest usage of the Noel, Wiggins, Clarkson, Galloway group. That is fine - the Cs and their coach have been trying to play competent basketball all year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=smartma01&y2=2015&p2=gallola01&y3=2015&p3=noelne01&y4=2015&p4=wiggian01&y5=2015&p5=clarkjo01&p6=#totals::none

Meanwhile Noel has been having a prep camp in real games on jump hooks and post moves all year.

I am not saying Smart is better offensively than this group. He may or may not be. He is not efficient with his fewer touches (well, neither are Noel and Gallo). All I am saying is their situations are too different to tell.

Smart has low usage, because he's not a good player right now.   He's a terrible offensive player who is an exceptional defender.

Out of the guys that keep getting mentioned (Smart, Noel, Clarkson, Galloway), the only one that would actually start for a contender is Noel.  You can put Noel on basically any team and he'll make a major impact, because of the importance of defensive bigs in this game.   

No.  Put Noel on a contender and he'd seated on the bench because if he were playing in games where the other team was trying he would be getting regularly pantsed on defense and would be a MASSIVE weakness on offense.  On a top team, Noel would be getting more than garbage time but no more than Smart would probably receive.

The guy turns 21 years old next week.  A little perspective, please.

Mike

Sorry, Mike... not true.  Noel is a top 5-10 defensive player in the league this year based on any statistical measure you can bring up.  He's made Philly a top 10 defensive team basically by himself.   He'd be getting minutes on pretty much any team that doesn't already have an all-star defensive big.  He's on a par with post-prime KG in terms of how he can impact the game without scoring a basket.

Are those the same statistics that gave Brandan Wright one of the highest ranking PERs in the entire league?

Again, a little perspective.  If he's post-prime KG as a 20 year old rookie, what is he going to be when he's in his prime at 27-32?  Is the going to average a double-double in blocks and steals?

Mike

Mike... he's top 10 in the league in defensive efficiency.  He's on pace to be the first rookie his age to ever average 1.8 steals and 1.8 blocks.  He's the defensive anchor of a top 11 defense.  With him on the court, they have the league's 3rd best defense.  With him on the bench, they have the league's 24th best defense.  He's already an elite defensive force in this league. 

He'd be getting minutes on basically any team.  Show me evidence that he's NOT an elite defensive force.  So far, all I've found is proof that he is.