Poll

Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years

Bias & Lewis
16 (72.7%)
Tatum & Brown
6 (27.3%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: July 30, 2020, 08:45:20 AM

Author Topic: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?  (Read 6830 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2020, 02:16:40 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58564
  • Tommy Points: -25634
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Quote
  Even if Bias put it all together, there is no guarantee his peak was that of a MVP either.

I do agree with this.  The draft is a crapshoot; you just never know.  Derek Coleman was supposed to be one of the greatest of all time.  So were Danny Manning and Pervis Ellison. 

Who knows? Everything I saw of Bias was that he would have been a dominant player playing in the 80s.  But maybe he would “only” have been Bernard King.  Maybe he’s “only” Dominique’s rival.  Maybe he busts.  We have no idea.  But, combining athleticism and skillset, he was pretty unique for his era. 



I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2020, 03:07:00 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • NCE
  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15402
  • Tommy Points: 2785
As much as Larry advocated for Bias being good enough for him to retire early does anyone here think he'd even SNIFF Larry Bird-level of greatness?

Sure..he could jump out of a gym....sure - he seemed to be able to score at will...seemed to be a very good rebounder...was a decent defender...

But could he shoot? From deep? Could he even SNIFF Larry's passing ability?

These things make me wonder if he could TRULY make those around him better....like say Magic, LeBron, Larry, Durant, Michael.....

Would he have been THAT good (those five I listed)?

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2020, 04:25:57 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33464
  • Tommy Points: 1533
But then his numbers should have been higher.  Why wasn't he scoring more, grabbing more rebounds, etc. especially his senior year?
That's easy. Two words. Lefty Driesell.

Lefty was never known as an offensive genius or someone that pushed pace for lots of possessions. He liked slowing the game down. And he wasn't one to change his system to maximize the talent of one particular player.

And yet, in Bias' last year Bias was responsible for 33% of Maryland's points and 22% of their rebounds. And, as discussed elsewhere, other than Bias, that team had little to no talent.
Keith Gatlin played professional basketball for over a decade.  He was an all star in both Germany and France (he lead the German league in scoring one year).  Derrick Lewis played professional basketball for 16 years (he was a 3rd round pick of the Bulls though never played in the NBA). Those two, along with Terry Long were Parade All Americans in high school.  As I've indicated elsewhere, Tony Massenburg played 683 games in the NBA.

So that senior year of Bias he was playing with 3 other High School Parade All Americans, two of which played professionally for over a decade each, as well as a future long time NBA player (that wasn't a Parade All American).  None of them were stars, but that isn't a team void of talent either. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2020, 04:52:28 PM »

Online johnnygreen

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2259
  • Tommy Points: 298
I would go with Bias and Lewis.

Regarding Reggie Lewis, I remember him as an ultra smooth offensive player, who was very good defensively too. Let's not forget, he played with the big three, so his offensive numbers could have easily been higher on a less talented team. I also think he played in an era, where the 2 guard was more difficult to defend. I would give Jaylen the slight edge defensively, but as far as offensively and basketball IQ, I think Reggie easily had the edge there.

I don't understand why some people here are trying to minimize Bias's potential impact. They seem to be trying to compare him to all time greats or MVP caliber players, and that he would have not matched their success. I guess my question is, do these same people think Tatum will be on par with these all time greats and MVP caliber players? I hope Tatum does reach those heights, but just like Bias, he has yet to get there. On another note, if Bias was not as potentially good as these distractors claim, then why did Red Auerbach take him with the second overall pick, who then lite a cigar after the pick was made, as if he just won another title?

To add one more scenario, if Len Bias actually played for the Celtics. Would Red Auerbach have been willing to trade Bird and or McHale? I believe Red was approached with the following trades towards the end of their careers.: Bird to Indiana for Chuck Person, Herb Williams, and Steve Stipanovich. McHale to Dallas for Detlef Schrempf and Sam Perkins. Obviously, that Bird trade proposal was garbage, but that would have been a great deal for McHale.

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2020, 07:00:49 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
I lived in MD at the time and saw quite a few of Bias' games.  I echo nickagneta's sentiment:  "Man playing with boys." 

There are times when you see a young player in prep or college who is so clearly physically advanced that it is about far more than just the scores or game outcomes.   I remember when Ken Griffey, Jr. was playing high school ball.  Or when Lebron was playing high school ball.   You could tell even then that they were going to dominate at the major pro sports level.  Watching Luka Doncic in Euroball.  You just knew.

I mean, I remember watching Detlef Schremp manhandle my high school basketball team and as good as he was, that was nothing like the aura of superior physical dominance that I later saw watching Bias play at college.  Griffey & Lebron are the only other guys who I think evoked that same sense of awe as Bias.

This is a very tough call because it is impossible to really know.  I absolutely love Tatum & Brown - whom I think both have so, so much more upside to grow into.   And even Reggie still was not a finished product.  So even with his lost future we are just guessing.

I'm going to lean slightly towards Bias & Lewis, but I consider it pretty close.  Maybe because I just plain want The Two Jays to be great and I want to keep them forever in Celtic green.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2020, 08:18:37 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • NCE
  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15402
  • Tommy Points: 2785
Here is the video of Reggie Blocking Michael four times in one game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw

The BOX SCORE from that game is just as incredible as the video

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199103310BOS.html

Reggie was 2nd in scoring at 25, next to Larry with 34. Incredible game.

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2020, 09:01:22 AM »

Online Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30940
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • What a Pub Should Be
My biggest concern with Bias was, if he had lived and that fateful night was just a regular night of partying for him, would've the mid to late 80s have gotten him and destroyed the potential that was there?  Would he have gone the Washburn route or even just struggle because of off-court stuff?  Was that really just a one night thing or would've the fame & fortune of the NBA gotten him?

The basketball talent was clearly there. Kid was legit.  The what-if of him playing with the Big Three is painful.  You just don't know how things would've unfolded, though.  So many what-ifs.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2020, 10:19:37 AM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33464
  • Tommy Points: 1533
My biggest concern with Bias was, if he had lived and that fateful night was just a regular night of partying for him, would've the mid to late 80s have gotten him and destroyed the potential that was there?  Would he have gone the Washburn route or even just struggle because of off-court stuff?  Was that really just a one night thing or would've the fame & fortune of the NBA gotten him?

The basketball talent was clearly there. Kid was legit.  The what-if of him playing with the Big Three is painful.  You just don't know how things would've unfolded, though.  So many what-ifs.
from accounts I've read, that wasn't a one-off.  Bias was allegedly a fairly regular user.  It was the mid-80's though and lots and lots of people were fairly regular users then.  I mean reading up on what Washburn has said, it was everywhere and lots of players were using cocaine on a somewhat regular basis (Jordan and others talked about this as well).  Obviously it affects people differently and some people become addicted and it destroys their life (like Washburn) or worse. 

Bias wouldn't have gone #2 in a modern draft.  He had too many red flags that they would have caught today.  In fact it was Bias death that really changed how the pre-draft process is handled by teams.  They do far more digging and research then they ever did in the mid-80's to try and find the players that have potential drug or other problems.  That draft in general really was tragic.  So many what-ifs.  You had all of the drug guys (Bias, Washburn, Bedford, and Tarpley - all top 7 picks), plus you had Petrovic's tragic accident, Daughtery's back giving out at 28, and Sabonis not coming over until his knees were shot.  The one draft in NBA history where the 2nd round produced more talent than the 1st round.   There were 5 all stars but Daugherty was the only 1st rounder while Price, Rodman, Duckworth, and Hornacek were all 2nd rounders. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2020, 01:01:58 PM »

Online bdm860

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5952
  • Tommy Points: 4586
My biggest concern with Bias was, if he had lived and that fateful night was just a regular night of partying for him, would've the mid to late 80s have gotten him and destroyed the potential that was there?  Would he have gone the Washburn route or even just struggle because of off-court stuff?  Was that really just a one night thing or would've the fame & fortune of the NBA gotten him?

The basketball talent was clearly there. Kid was legit.  The what-if of him playing with the Big Three is painful.  You just don't know how things would've unfolded, though.  So many what-ifs.
from accounts I've read, that wasn't a one-off.  Bias was allegedly a fairly regular user.  It was the mid-80's though and lots and lots of people were fairly regular users then.  I mean reading up on what Washburn has said, it was everywhere and lots of players were using cocaine on a somewhat regular basis (Jordan and others talked about this as well).  Obviously it affects people differently and some people become addicted and it destroys their life (like Washburn) or worse. 

Currently reading Dream Team by Jack McCallum (a third of the of the way through, very enjoyable so far), and just read this part yesterday about the cocaine situation that I thought was interesting and figure now is as good of a time as any to share (specific section is talking about Mullin's alcohol problems):

Quote
Oakland was a different culture—a drug culture, not a beer culture, and widely recognized as the cocaine capital of the NBA, which at the time was saying something. I remember Atlanta Hawks coach Mike Fratello deciding to keep his team in Los Angeles for an extra couple of days instead of staying in Oakland for a game with the Warriors. “I’d rather have them [screw] themselves to death in L.A.,” Fratello reasoned, “than spend one night in Oakland.”

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2020, 04:36:54 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
My biggest concern with Bias was, if he had lived and that fateful night was just a regular night of partying for him, would've the mid to late 80s have gotten him and destroyed the potential that was there?  Would he have gone the Washburn route or even just struggle because of off-court stuff?  Was that really just a one night thing or would've the fame & fortune of the NBA gotten him?

The basketball talent was clearly there. Kid was legit.  The what-if of him playing with the Big Three is painful.  You just don't know how things would've unfolded, though.  So many what-ifs.
from accounts I've read, that wasn't a one-off.  Bias was allegedly a fairly regular user.  It was the mid-80's though and lots and lots of people were fairly regular users then.  I mean reading up on what Washburn has said, it was everywhere and lots of players were using cocaine on a somewhat regular basis (Jordan and others talked about this as well).  Obviously it affects people differently and some people become addicted and it destroys their life (like Washburn) or worse. 

Bias wouldn't have gone #2 in a modern draft.  He had too many red flags that they would have caught today. In fact it was Bias death that really changed how the pre-draft process is handled by teams.  They do far more digging and research then they ever did in the mid-80's to try and find the players that have potential drug or other problems.  That draft in general really was tragic.  So many what-ifs.  You had all of the drug guys (Bias, Washburn, Bedford, and Tarpley - all top 7 picks), plus you had Petrovic's tragic accident, Daughtery's back giving out at 28, and Sabonis not coming over until his knees were shot.  The one draft in NBA history where the 2nd round produced more talent than the 1st round.   There were 5 all stars but Daugherty was the only 1st rounder while Price, Rodman, Duckworth, and Hornacek were all 2nd rounders.

This is just the same problem we have whenever comparing athletes across eras.  A common statement is something like, "Today's athletes are so much fitter, taking much better care of their bodies, nutrition, sports medicine, blah blah blah versus young Tommy Heinsohn burning through cigs in his day ..."   The 'reality' (of this hypothetical) is that if you transport guys to different eras they likely are going to do things a little different than they did in their era.

If Bias came up in today's prep/AAU environment, the scouting, coaching, mentoring and education would be different.   Yes, at the time he fell into same drug culture trap that destroyed a lot of great athletes (David Thompson - so sad).   That doesn't mean he would fall into that trap in the modern day.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2020, 04:44:58 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33464
  • Tommy Points: 1533
My biggest concern with Bias was, if he had lived and that fateful night was just a regular night of partying for him, would've the mid to late 80s have gotten him and destroyed the potential that was there?  Would he have gone the Washburn route or even just struggle because of off-court stuff?  Was that really just a one night thing or would've the fame & fortune of the NBA gotten him?

The basketball talent was clearly there. Kid was legit.  The what-if of him playing with the Big Three is painful.  You just don't know how things would've unfolded, though.  So many what-ifs.
from accounts I've read, that wasn't a one-off.  Bias was allegedly a fairly regular user.  It was the mid-80's though and lots and lots of people were fairly regular users then.  I mean reading up on what Washburn has said, it was everywhere and lots of players were using cocaine on a somewhat regular basis (Jordan and others talked about this as well).  Obviously it affects people differently and some people become addicted and it destroys their life (like Washburn) or worse. 

Bias wouldn't have gone #2 in a modern draft.  He had too many red flags that they would have caught today. In fact it was Bias death that really changed how the pre-draft process is handled by teams.  They do far more digging and research then they ever did in the mid-80's to try and find the players that have potential drug or other problems.  That draft in general really was tragic.  So many what-ifs.  You had all of the drug guys (Bias, Washburn, Bedford, and Tarpley - all top 7 picks), plus you had Petrovic's tragic accident, Daughtery's back giving out at 28, and Sabonis not coming over until his knees were shot.  The one draft in NBA history where the 2nd round produced more talent than the 1st round.   There were 5 all stars but Daugherty was the only 1st rounder while Price, Rodman, Duckworth, and Hornacek were all 2nd rounders.

This is just the same problem we have whenever comparing athletes across eras.  A common statement is something like, "Today's athletes are so much fitter, taking much better care of their bodies, nutrition, sports medicine, blah blah blah versus young Tommy Heinsohn burning through cigs in his day ..."   The 'reality' (of this hypothetical) is that if you transport guys to different eras they likely are going to do things a little different than they did in their era.

If Bias came up in today's prep/AAU environment, the scouting, coaching, mentoring and education would be different.   Yes, at the time he fell into same drug culture trap that destroyed a lot of great athletes (David Thompson - so sad).   That doesn't mean he would fall into that trap in the modern day.
True, but lots of players still fall into the drug trap and lots of players didn't in the 80's.  My point was that Bias had a lot of red flags that teams just didn't look for in the 80's.  Those red flags would have been caught with the way they do pre-draft analysis now, which started to change a great deal as a result of Bias' death and all of the other drug issues from top players in that particular draft.  Bias was a wake up call for the league (though as Washburn has said not for him personally). 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2020, 05:00:56 PM »

Offline GreenShooter

  • NCE
  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1177
  • Tommy Points: 87
So I dvr'd the Maryland/North Carolina game, from 1986, last night. I was seeing a 6'8 Michael Jordan-type talent. I saw it all, just about. The only thing I didn't see was a fade-away jumper. But as high as he elevated over people with his jumper he didn't need a fade-away at that level. He also didn't drive to the hoop that many times only because the lane was always clogged. He also showed off a nice cross-over. He would've made a living at the free-throw line. He would have been spectacular on the C's and him and Reggie would've been a handful.

Did anyone else happen to catch game?

This bad boy would've been up in the rafters.