Author Topic: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart  (Read 4691 times)

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Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2019, 12:34:29 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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IMO it's bye bye Jayson. I like players with a better motor than Jayson shows at this point. Plus Tatum and Brown are too similar in my book, both need the ball and once they have it, they both think the same thing.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2019, 03:50:13 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Tatum has more value than Smart + Brown

Tatum has superstar potential.

Brown has fringe star potential.

Smart is a career role player.

So you’d trade Brown and Smart? Would you still go after Kyrie with Davis, Horford, Hayward and Tatum?

So in other words... if Cleveland had Brown and Smart... and Washington had Tatum.... and Cleveland calls up saying "We'll offer you Brown and Smart for Jayson Tatum"... Washington laughs hysterically and hangs up.   

On the flip side, if Washington calls up the Cleveland and says, "Hey we'll give you Jayson Tatum for Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart", Cleveland jumps at it immediately and then privately wonders if Washington forgot to ask for the #5 pick as well.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2019, 03:57:31 PM »

Offline td450

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Tatum has more value than Smart + Brown

Tatum has superstar potential.

Brown has fringe star potential.

Smart is a career role player.

So you’d trade Brown and Smart? Would you still go after Kyrie with Davis, Horford, Hayward and Tatum?

So in other words... if Cleveland had Brown and Smart... and Washington had Tatum.... and Cleveland calls up saying "We'll offer you Brown and Smart for Jayson Tatum"... Washington laughs hysterically and hangs up.   

On the flip side, if Washington calls up the Cleveland and says, "Hey we'll give you Jayson Tatum for Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart", Cleveland jumps at it immediately and then privately wonders if Washington forgot to ask for the #5 pick as well.
Give Brown and Smart to either of those teams, and give the other team Tatum. I'm pretty sure the team with Brown and Smart is consistently a better team, and it isn't that close.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2019, 05:37:07 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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I'd rather have Brown and Smart. Tatum is clearly the most promising prospect of course. But it's not like he's Karl-Anthony Towns, Ben Simmons, or frankly even De'Aaron Fox. Guys who are All-Star caliber right now, without question.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2019, 07:38:51 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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Tatum has more value than Smart + Brown

Tatum has superstar potential.

Brown has fringe star potential.

Smart is a career role player.

So you’d trade Brown and Smart? Would you still go after Kyrie with Davis, Horford, Hayward and Tatum?

Kyrie is a given under any circumstance. He is a 2nd All-NBA Team star in his prime - you sign him to a max even if you absolutely hate him. He is much better than our other two max players.

I assume what LB is saying is that if NOP views Brown and Tatum equally, that is awesome. You trade Brown and Smart (plus whatever) for AD and you still have your number one asset to either build around or trade. I love JB - he is probably my current favorite Celtic - but even I realize that Tatum has more value, not even including the extra year left on his rookie contract.

I think the All-NBA selection these days are kinda sketchy. You have guys like Rudy Gobert, Deandre Jordan and Carlos Boozer making the team. Signing a guy who fail to lead a team in the playoffs into a max could be mistake. You have teams like Washington, OKC and Grizzlies crippling their cap because of signing guys that aren't even max worthy. Jazz will regret signing Gobert with Super Max.

Max salary should only be spent with proven MVP caliber players who can lead their team deep into the playoffs.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2019, 10:27:32 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Tatum has more value than Smart + Brown

Tatum has superstar potential.

Brown has fringe star potential.

Smart is a career role player.

So you’d trade Brown and Smart? Would you still go after Kyrie with Davis, Horford, Hayward and Tatum?

Kyrie is a given under any circumstance. He is a 2nd All-NBA Team star in his prime - you sign him to a max even if you absolutely hate him. He is much better than our other two max players.

I assume what LB is saying is that if NOP views Brown and Tatum equally, that is awesome. You trade Brown and Smart (plus whatever) for AD and you still have your number one asset to either build around or trade. I love JB - he is probably my current favorite Celtic - but even I realize that Tatum has more value, not even including the extra year left on his rookie contract.

I think the All-NBA selection these days are kinda sketchy. You have guys like Rudy Gobert, Deandre Jordan and Carlos Boozer making the team. Signing a guy who fail to lead a team in the playoffs into a max could be mistake. You have teams like Washington, OKC and Grizzlies crippling their cap because of signing guys that aren't even max worthy. Jazz will regret signing Gobert with Super Max.

Max salary should only be spent with proven MVP caliber players who can lead their team deep into the playoffs.
That's just not how it works though, and if you try to do that you'll lose all your All-Star level talent in free agency
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2019, 10:48:08 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Tatum has more value than Smart + Brown

Tatum has superstar potential.

Brown has fringe star potential.

Smart is a career role player.

So you’d trade Brown and Smart? Would you still go after Kyrie with Davis, Horford, Hayward and Tatum?

Kyrie is a given under any circumstance. He is a 2nd All-NBA Team star in his prime - you sign him to a max even if you absolutely hate him. He is much better than our other two max players.

I assume what LB is saying is that if NOP views Brown and Tatum equally, that is awesome. You trade Brown and Smart (plus whatever) for AD and you still have your number one asset to either build around or trade. I love JB - he is probably my current favorite Celtic - but even I realize that Tatum has more value, not even including the extra year left on his rookie contract.

I think the All-NBA selection these days are kinda sketchy. You have guys like Rudy Gobert, Deandre Jordan and Carlos Boozer making the team. Signing a guy who fail to lead a team in the playoffs into a max could be mistake. You have teams like Washington, OKC and Grizzlies crippling their cap because of signing guys that aren't even max worthy. Jazz will regret signing Gobert with Super Max.

Max salary should only be spent with proven MVP caliber players who can lead their team deep into the playoffs.
That's just not how it works though, and if you try to do that you'll lose all your All-Star level talent in free agency

Yeah, really. And, I'm confused, are we saying that Kyrie is not one of those guys? He's clearly deserving of a max contract, even a super-max (but the CBA doesn't allow that - so much for Boston's advantage). Even if you say every team should only have one max contract guy, you still get 30 of those in the league. Two per team even sounds reasonable (we had 3 this past year, could have 4 next), which gives you 60. More than half of those would not even be All-Stars.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2019, 11:10:56 PM »

Offline GreenCoffeeBean

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Calling Marcus Smart a career role player is the most disturbing thing I think I’ve ever read.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2019, 08:04:08 PM »

Offline MaxAMillion

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It is truly amazing how people turn on C's players. So now Tatum doesn't have the right attitude or skills for the team. People should go back and look at all the 20 year old players throughout league history (especially in their second season).  Tatum (like most players) has a chance to get a lot better. His role changed this season and he struggled with how to make it work. That isn't unusual for a young player.

I think Tatum should get traded to NO. It will certainly be easier to grow and progress as a player there without the scrutiny and negativity.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2019, 08:40:54 PM »

Offline gouki88

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It is truly amazing how people turn on C's players. So now Tatum doesn't have the right attitude or skills for the team. People should go back and look at all the 20 year old players throughout league history (especially in their second season).  Tatum (like most players) has a chance to get a lot better. His role changed this season and he struggled with how to make it work. That isn't unusual for a young player.

I think Tatum should get traded to NO. It will certainly be easier to grow and progress as a player there without the scrutiny and negativity.
It's interesting that you bring up players and their second season, as almost every single superstar in the league took a massive step forward in their second year, besides really Kawhi.

Not promising for Tatum
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2019, 08:54:13 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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It is truly amazing how people turn on C's players. So now Tatum doesn't have the right attitude or skills for the team. People should go back and look at all the 20 year old players throughout league history (especially in their second season).  Tatum (like most players) has a chance to get a lot better. His role changed this season and he struggled with how to make it work. That isn't unusual for a young player.

I think Tatum should get traded to NO. It will certainly be easier to grow and progress as a player there without the scrutiny and negativity.
It's interesting that you bring up players and their second season, as almost every single superstar in the league took a massive step forward in their second year, besides really Kawhi.

Not promising for Tatum
Bingo. People really don't want to hear this, but 99% of superstars start playing at a really high level by their second season.
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C: Ben Wallace / Andrew Bynum

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2019, 09:00:14 PM »

Offline jambr380

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It is truly amazing how people turn on C's players. So now Tatum doesn't have the right attitude or skills for the team. People should go back and look at all the 20 year old players throughout league history (especially in their second season).  Tatum (like most players) has a chance to get a lot better. His role changed this season and he struggled with how to make it work. That isn't unusual for a young player.

I think Tatum should get traded to NO. It will certainly be easier to grow and progress as a player there without the scrutiny and negativity.
It's interesting that you bring up players and their second season, as almost every single superstar in the league took a massive step forward in their second year, besides really Kawhi.

Not promising for Tatum

Most rising superstars are given almost unlimited opportunities to fail/succeed. Tatum was on a team full of underachieving All-Stars. If this was Tatum's team, he likely would have put up considerably better raw numbers.

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2019, 09:07:37 PM »

Offline gouki88

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It is truly amazing how people turn on C's players. So now Tatum doesn't have the right attitude or skills for the team. People should go back and look at all the 20 year old players throughout league history (especially in their second season).  Tatum (like most players) has a chance to get a lot better. His role changed this season and he struggled with how to make it work. That isn't unusual for a young player.

I think Tatum should get traded to NO. It will certainly be easier to grow and progress as a player there without the scrutiny and negativity.
It's interesting that you bring up players and their second season, as almost every single superstar in the league took a massive step forward in their second year, besides really Kawhi.

Not promising for Tatum

Most rising superstars are given almost unlimited opportunities to fail/succeed. Tatum was on a team full of underachieving All-Stars. If this was Tatum's team, he likely would have put up considerably better raw numbers.
You're not wrong, but it's still troubling when a second year player takes steps back in efficiency and defence from their rookie year
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2019, 09:14:57 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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Tatum has more value than Smart + Brown

Tatum has superstar potential.

Brown has fringe star potential.

Smart is a career role player.

So you’d trade Brown and Smart? Would you still go after Kyrie with Davis, Horford, Hayward and Tatum?

Kyrie is a given under any circumstance. He is a 2nd All-NBA Team star in his prime - you sign him to a max even if you absolutely hate him. He is much better than our other two max players.

I assume what LB is saying is that if NOP views Brown and Tatum equally, that is awesome. You trade Brown and Smart (plus whatever) for AD and you still have your number one asset to either build around or trade. I love JB - he is probably my current favorite Celtic - but even I realize that Tatum has more value, not even including the extra year left on his rookie contract.

I think the All-NBA selection these days are kinda sketchy. You have guys like Rudy Gobert, Deandre Jordan and Carlos Boozer making the team. Signing a guy who fail to lead a team in the playoffs into a max could be mistake. You have teams like Washington, OKC and Grizzlies crippling their cap because of signing guys that aren't even max worthy. Jazz will regret signing Gobert with Super Max.

Max salary should only be spent with proven MVP caliber players who can lead their team deep into the playoffs.
That's just not how it works though, and if you try to do that you'll lose all your All-Star level talent in free agency

Yeah, really. And, I'm confused, are we saying that Kyrie is not one of those guys? He's clearly deserving of a max contract, even a super-max (but the CBA doesn't allow that - so much for Boston's advantage). Even if you say every team should only have one max contract guy, you still get 30 of those in the league. Two per team even sounds reasonable (we had 3 this past year, could have 4 next), which gives you 60. More than half of those would not even be All-Stars.

Again, how did those supermax turned out for their teams? Sure, you get to retain your supposedly star player, but you also kill your chance your chance to improve your team by signing better supporting casts. In short, you are stuck in purgatory. Steph actually led Warriors a ship before he was signed into supermax contract. Warriors was smart to so sign him into a bargain deal before he became an MVP caliber player.

What did guys like Wall and Westbrook did to their respective franchise as supermax players? I wouldn't consider Westbrook a true MVP because he failed to lead his team deep in the playoffs. I have no problem teams signing players to supermax, only if they truly deserve it.

If people were hesistant to bring IT brinks truck back then, it shouldn't be different with Kyrie who performed much worse when we needed him the most.

There should be an actual scale price range when recent performance before free agency is in question.

Tier 1 = Supermax (MVP caliber players)
Tier 2 = Max players (Fringe All-Stars/All-NBA/DPOY players)
Tier 3 = All-Defensive teamers/ 6MOY
Tier 4 = Solid role players
Tier 5 = MLE
Tier 6 = Vet min

There is no way Kyrie belongs in the supermax discussion. Max extension, maybe but the team have already peaked, unless there are major changes within. Either within the coaching system or supporting casts.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 09:22:17 PM by mr. dee »

Re: Scenario: Tatum or Brown+Smart
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2019, 09:31:54 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Tatum has more value than Smart + Brown

Tatum has superstar potential.

Brown has fringe star potential.

Smart is a career role player.

So you’d trade Brown and Smart? Would you still go after Kyrie with Davis, Horford, Hayward and Tatum?

Kyrie is a given under any circumstance. He is a 2nd All-NBA Team star in his prime - you sign him to a max even if you absolutely hate him. He is much better than our other two max players.

I assume what LB is saying is that if NOP views Brown and Tatum equally, that is awesome. You trade Brown and Smart (plus whatever) for AD and you still have your number one asset to either build around or trade. I love JB - he is probably my current favorite Celtic - but even I realize that Tatum has more value, not even including the extra year left on his rookie contract.

I think the All-NBA selection these days are kinda sketchy. You have guys like Rudy Gobert, Deandre Jordan and Carlos Boozer making the team. Signing a guy who fail to lead a team in the playoffs into a max could be mistake. You have teams like Washington, OKC and Grizzlies crippling their cap because of signing guys that aren't even max worthy. Jazz will regret signing Gobert with Super Max.

Max salary should only be spent with proven MVP caliber players who can lead their team deep into the playoffs.
That's just not how it works though, and if you try to do that you'll lose all your All-Star level talent in free agency

Yeah, really. And, I'm confused, are we saying that Kyrie is not one of those guys? He's clearly deserving of a max contract, even a super-max (but the CBA doesn't allow that - so much for Boston's advantage). Even if you say every team should only have one max contract guy, you still get 30 of those in the league. Two per team even sounds reasonable (we had 3 this past year, could have 4 next), which gives you 60. More than half of those would not even be All-Stars.

Again, how did those supermax turned out for their teams? Sure, you get to retain your supposedly star player, but you also kill your chance your chance to improve your team by signing better supporting casts. In short, you are stuck in purgatory. Steph actually led Warriors a ship before he was signed into supermax contract. Warriors was smart to so sign him into a bargain deal before he became an MVP caliber player.

What did guys like Wall and Westbrook did to their respective franchise as supermax players? I wouldn't consider Westbrook a true MVP because he failed to lead his team deep in the playoffs. I have no problem teams signing players to supermax, only if they truly deserve it.

If people were hesistant to bring IT brinks truck back then, it shouldn't be different with Kyrie who performed much worse when we needed him the most.

There should be an actual scale price range when recent performance before free agency is in question.

Tier 1 = Supermax (MVP caliber players)
Tier 2 = Max players (Fringe All-Stars/All-NBA/DPOY players)
Tier 3 = All-Defensive teamers/ 6MOY
Tier 4 = Solid role players
Tier 5 = MLE
Tier 6 = Vet min

There is no way Kyrie belongs in the supermax discussion. Max extension, maybe but the team have already peaked, unless there are major changes within. Either within the coaching system or supporting casts.
A supermax contract is still a max contract, it just allows a player to sign for the maximum for the years of service higher than the actual service.  There are 3 max tiers but it is based solely by years of service, nothing more, nothing less (25%, 30%, and 35%).  If you meet certain metrics you can just sign for the higher percentage, which has been dubbed supermax, but it really is just the same max contract.  It isn't special and teams don't just get a supermax contract to spend.
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