Doc's coahing on the Road

[BballTim]

The teams goes as Rondo goes. Rondo didn't go and the team got stuck with a 1-3 road record. Rondo needs to step up his play on the road. He's too good to be such a night and day player depending on whether or not it's a home game or not.

I thought Rondo played well last night and for most of the road trip. It's not his fault if Ray won't give up the ball on a fast break or that Perk has tennis rackets for hands. The team was red hot in the 1st quarter and then Doc's watch went off, House got in, and things went downhill from there.

I don't think Rondo played poorly Chief, but his play is indicative of the team as a whole.  Yesterday's game he had five assists and three steals in the first quarter. He finished with seven assists and three steals.  I believe he did the same thing in the GS game.

  This is, I think, one of Doc's main flaws as coach. He leaves Rondo on the bench way too long in the 2nd quarter. It killed us in at least 3-4 games in the playoffs last year. He takes Rondo out at the end of the 1st quarter (which is fine) and then tries to get as many minutes as possible from House (or Sam last spring). We gradually lose our momentum and the other team gets a better flow going. Doc stems the tide by putting Paul and KG back in and eventually puts Rondo back in after 6-7 minutes (which is probably 10-12 minutes real time). By then our offense has no flow and Rondo's coming in cold because he was on the bench for so long. On one hand, people are discussing whether Rajon should be an all-star. Pierce says he's probably the best pg in the east. But he's 19th among pgs in minutes per game.

[reggie35]

The teams goes as Rondo goes. Rondo didn't go and the team got stuck with a 1-3 road record. Rondo needs to step up his play on the road. He's too good to be such a night and day player depending on whether or not it's a home game or not.

I thought Rondo played well last night and for most of the road trip. It's not his fault if Ray won't give up the ball on a fast break or that Perk has tennis rackets for hands. The team was red hot in the 1st quarter and then Doc's watch went off, House got in, and things went downhill from there.

I don't think Rondo played poorly Chief, but his play is indicative of the team as a whole.  Yesterday's game he had five assists and three steals in the first quarter. He finished with seven assists and three steals.  I believe he did the same thing in the GS game.

  This is, I think, one of Doc's main flaws as coach. He leaves Rondo on the bench way too long in the 2nd quarter. It killed us in at least 3-4 games in the playoffs last year. He takes Rondo out at the end of the 1st quarter (which is fine) and then tries to get as many minutes as possible from House (or Sam last spring). We gradually lose our momentum and the other team gets a better flow going. Doc stems the tide by putting Paul and KG back in and eventually puts Rondo back in after 6-7 minutes (which is probably 10-12 minutes real time). By then our offense has no flow and Rondo's coming in cold because he was on the bench for so long. On one hand, people are discussing whether Rajon should be an all-star. Pierce says he's probably the best pg in the east. But he's 19th among pgs in minutes per game.

I just started a thread on this :-)

[winsomme]

Agreed.  Doc and the bench were horrific during this trip.  Doc seems afraid to play Pruitt against good teams.  Give the kid a shot.

Agree with you there to..Pruitt deserves a shot.TP

i would like to see Pruitt get some PT, but the problem is that that means Eddie gets less time and he is really the best option off our bench.

playing Pruitt at SG leaves us very undersized and hurts our biggest strength right now which is our defense....

i actually think it would make more sense to bring up Walker or Giddens and let one of them get some playing time....they are a more natural fit for where we have a need.

[winsomme]

The teams goes as Rondo goes. Rondo didn't go and the team got stuck with a 1-3 road record. Rondo needs to step up his play on the road. He's too good to be such a night and day player depending on whether or not it's a home game or not.

I thought Rondo played well last night and for most of the road trip. It's not his fault if Ray won't give up the ball on a fast break or that Perk has tennis rackets for hands. The team was red hot in the 1st quarter and then Doc's watch went off, House got in, and things went downhill from there.

I don't think Rondo played poorly Chief, but his play is indicative of the team as a whole.  Yesterday's game he had five assists and three steals in the first quarter. He finished with seven assists and three steals.  I believe he did the same thing in the GS game.

  This is, I think, one of Doc's main flaws as coach. He leaves Rondo on the bench way too long in the 2nd quarter. It killed us in at least 3-4 games in the playoffs last year. He takes Rondo out at the end of the 1st quarter (which is fine) and then tries to get as many minutes as possible from House (or Sam last spring). We gradually lose our momentum and the other team gets a better flow going. Doc stems the tide by putting Paul and KG back in and eventually puts Rondo back in after 6-7 minutes (which is probably 10-12 minutes real time). By then our offense has no flow and Rondo's coming in cold because he was on the bench for so long. On one hand, people are discussing whether Rajon should be an all-star. Pierce says he's probably the best pg in the east. But he's 19th among pgs in minutes per game.

but that just gives less minutes to the one player that we know can contribute on a consistent basis...

flow IMO has not been a problem with the starters, but burn out is...and it's not even just a minutes thing. it's starting to feel like the bench is not going to give that much, so it shifts even more of the mental burden of winning games on to the starters...

and like i said in another post, playing the starters more with the bench is just going to mean less time that the starters play together....and their play with each other is what is keeping us winning...

i agree that Rondo could play a little more, but i don't think that is the answer and the minutes he is playing, he is getting pounded...so overall i don't want him in the 40 MPG range...i think that could easily leave us without him at all at crunch time.

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

Doc has been simply outcoached on this road trip, theres no question about it...opposing teams know exactly whats coming and they gameplan around when our crappy bench comes in

[winsomme]

Doc has been simply outcoached on this road trip, theres no question about it...opposing teams know exactly whats coming and they gameplan around when our crappy bench comes in

i don't know that knowing we have a weak bench is great coaching on the opposing coaches part. it's common knowledge. JVG and Marc Jackson talked about it a lot during the Laker game.

the question is what to do about it.

there are four options as it see it:

1. play the starters more minutes which would mean that they are playing more with bench guys and still playing the same amount with each other.

2. play the starters the same minutes, but less with each other and more with the bench guys.

3. continue to play like we have and keep pushing the bench guys to step up their games.

4. go out and try to get another guy to play with our bench.

for me, option 1 is wost case scenario (other than maybe playing Rondo a little more). we need to keep these guys fresh. option 2 IMO would just bring the team further down and maybe get more losses.

option three and four are where i think we need to be focusing. remember Eddie and Posey played a lot with the starters last year. So Doc is not opposed to it. and if you go back and look at 82games and look at the lineups where 4 and sometimes 5 of the bench guys were playing together, their productivity was not as bad as it is this year.

maybe we need to bring up Walker or Giddens and let them have a whack, be a spark....and/or also look to make a move..

[QuinielaBox]

Doc has been simply outcoached on this road trip, theres no question about it...opposing teams know exactly whats coming and they gameplan around when our crappy bench comes in

Doc was outcoached last night in Portland. He had no answers for Portland's front court superiority in numbers. Did Powe even have a rebound or point last night? I don't remember. Did Doc try a small lineup to induce Portland Turnovers? No.

In Golden State, they were absolutely whipped in the 4th quarter. That was disappointing.

In Los Angelos and Portland, the other teams simply wanted it more. I think the Celtics have another gear that enables them to win those tough games. If not, then Danny will find people to do the job.

[BballTim]

The teams goes as Rondo goes. Rondo didn't go and the team got stuck with a 1-3 road record. Rondo needs to step up his play on the road. He's too good to be such a night and day player depending on whether or not it's a home game or not.

I thought Rondo played well last night and for most of the road trip. It's not his fault if Ray won't give up the ball on a fast break or that Perk has tennis rackets for hands. The team was red hot in the 1st quarter and then Doc's watch went off, House got in, and things went downhill from there.

I don't think Rondo played poorly Chief, but his play is indicative of the team as a whole.  Yesterday's game he had five assists and three steals in the first quarter. He finished with seven assists and three steals.  I believe he did the same thing in the GS game.

  This is, I think, one of Doc's main flaws as coach. He leaves Rondo on the bench way too long in the 2nd quarter. It killed us in at least 3-4 games in the playoffs last year. He takes Rondo out at the end of the 1st quarter (which is fine) and then tries to get as many minutes as possible from House (or Sam last spring). We gradually lose our momentum and the other team gets a better flow going. Doc stems the tide by putting Paul and KG back in and eventually puts Rondo back in after 6-7 minutes (which is probably 10-12 minutes real time). By then our offense has no flow and Rondo's coming in cold because he was on the bench for so long. On one hand, people are discussing whether Rajon should be an all-star. Pierce says he's probably the best pg in the east. But he's 19th among pgs in minutes per game.

but that just gives less minutes to the one player that we know can contribute on a consistent basis...

  He's not the only plahyer who can contribute on a consistent basis. All of the starters are capable of that. I'm not saying to give his minutes to Tony Allen or Glen Davis. Just to Rondo.

and like i said in another post, playing the starters more with the bench is just going to mean less time that the starters play together....and their play with each other is what is keeping us winning...

  Putting Rondo in a little earlier in the 2nd quarter will increase his time with the starters, not reduce it.

i agree that Rondo could play a little more, but i don't think that is the answer and the minutes he is playing, he is getting pounded...so overall i don't want him in the 40 MPG range...i think that could easily leave us without him at all at crunch time.

 I didn't say he needed to play 40 minutes a game. But plenty of pgs play 36-37.

[winsomme]

Doc has been simply outcoached on this road trip, theres no question about it...opposing teams know exactly whats coming and they gameplan around when our crappy bench comes in

Doc was outcoached last night in Portland. He had no answers for Portland's front court superiority in numbers. Did Powe even have a rebound or point last night? I don't remember. Did Doc try a small lineup to induce Portland Turnovers? No.

In Golden State, they were absolutely whipped in the 4th quarter. That was disappointing.

In Los Angelos and Portland, the other teams simply wanted it more. I think the Celtics have another gear that enables them to win those tough games. If not, then Danny will find people to do the job.

i agree that last night's game would have been a primo "small ball" game. it would have forced POR to adjust their huge advantage on the blocks where Powe and BBD were totally overpowered by Oden, Aldirdge and Pryzb....

but alas, we do not have a really effective samll ball unit this year sans Posey....personally i think that our inability to go to that lineup is  the biggest loss from not having Pose.

[hpantazo]

The teams goes as Rondo goes. Rondo didn't go and the team got stuck with a 1-3 road record. Rondo needs to step up his play on the road. He's too good to be such a night and day player depending on whether or not it's a home game or not.

I thought Rondo played well last night and for most of the road trip. It's not his fault if Ray won't give up the ball on a fast break or that Perk has tennis rackets for hands. The team was red hot in the 1st quarter and then Doc's watch went off, House got in, and things went downhill from there.

I don't think Rondo played poorly Chief, but his play is indicative of the team as a whole.  Yesterday's game he had five assists and three steals in the first quarter. He finished with seven assists and three steals.  I believe he did the same thing in the GS game.

  This is, I think, one of Doc's main flaws as coach. He leaves Rondo on the bench way too long in the 2nd quarter. It killed us in at least 3-4 games in the playoffs last year. He takes Rondo out at the end of the 1st quarter (which is fine) and then tries to get as many minutes as possible from House (or Sam last spring). We gradually lose our momentum and the other team gets a better flow going. Doc stems the tide by putting Paul and KG back in and eventually puts Rondo back in after 6-7 minutes (which is probably 10-12 minutes real time). By then our offense has no flow and Rondo's coming in cold because he was on the bench for so long. On one hand, people are discussing whether Rajon should be an all-star. Pierce says he's probably the best pg in the east. But he's 19th among pgs in minutes per game.

but that just gives less minutes to the one player that we know can contribute on a consistent basis...

  He's not the only plahyer who can contribute on a consistent basis. All of the starters are capable of that. I'm not saying to give his minutes to Tony Allen or Glen Davis. Just to Rondo.

and like i said in another post, playing the starters more with the bench is just going to mean less time that the starters play together....and their play with each other is what is keeping us winning...

  Putting Rondo in a little earlier in the 2nd quarter will increase his time with the starters, not reduce it.

i agree that Rondo could play a little more, but i don't think that is the answer and the minutes he is playing, he is getting pounded...so overall i don't want him in the 40 MPG range...i think that could easily leave us without him at all at crunch time.

 I didn't say he needed to play 40 minutes a game. But plenty of pgs play 36-37.

I agree with the point of view that we need to protect Rondo. Yes he's young and he can run fpr 40 minutes a night with no problems, but it's the persistent pounding he takes going to the hoop that would eventually wear on him if he does it for 57-40 minutes a night, and we desperately need him in top form for the playoffs. Home court is not much use if we go into a series with House as our starting pg

[nickagneta]

Doc has proven that he is not going to change his substitution pattern of taking out KG at the 2:00 mark of the first quarter, Perk shortly after that, Pierce or Ray shortly after that or at the quarter break and Rondo much like Pierce or Ray at the quarter break. He will then have four subs out there with Ray or Pierce. He will then sub in Ray for Paul or Paul for Ray with 9:00 minutes left in the half. At the 7:00 mark he will start to put in a couple of starters and then by the 5:00 mark have all the starters back in.

It's what he has been doing with this starting group since basically the beginning of last year. It puts a very limited second group on the floor with one starter for the better part of 12 minutes a game.

Indiana: 1stQ 3:54 starters start coming out score 19-15 Indiana
Indiana: 2ndQ 7:05 starters start coming in score 35-27 Indiana
Indiana: 3rdQ 5:03 starters start coming out score 62-49 Indiana
Indiana: 4thQ 9:22 starters start coming in score 77-61 Indiana


Denver: 1stQ 0:42 starters start coming out score 26-23 Boston
Denver: 2ndQ 6:05 starters start coming in score 37-34 Denver
Denver: 3rdQ 1:14 starters start coming out score 63-60 Denver
Denver: 4thQ 7:11 starters start coming in score 78-71 Denver


Los Angeles: 1stQ 0:27 starters start coming out score 24-23 Boston
Los Angeles: 2ndQ 7:22 starters start coming in score 37-29 Los Angeles
Los Angeles: 3rdQ 2:31 starters start coming out score 64-64
Los Angeles: 4thQ 7:03 starters start coming in score 77-75 Los Angeles


Golden State: 1stQ 0:30 starters start coming out score 27-19 Boston
Golden State: 2ndQ 6:39 starters start coming in score 36-29 Boston
Golden State: 3rdQ 3:58 starters start coming out score 64-54 Boston
Golden State: 4thQ 9:15 starters start coming in score 74-69 Boston


Portland: 1stQ 1:53 starters start coming out score 21-13 Boston
Portland: 2ndQ 5:37 starters start coming in score 34-29 Boston
Portland: 3rdQ 3:17 starters start coming out score 58-53 Boston
Portland: 4thQ 7:13 starters start coming in score 72-68 Portland

Now these are just the losses and the times can be moved around a little bit here and there depending on your own interpretation as to when the bench started coming in and not but for the most part it can be seen that there is definitely a pattern in which this team gives up points using this substitution pattern in the team's losses thus far this season. And there are probably a dozen of the same type of patterns in wins in which the subs come in and points are given back.

So one of three things need to happen:

1. The players that Doc are using need to start playing better
2. Doc needs to change the way he subs those players in
3. Danny needs to change the players

My guess is that #2 isn't going to happen and that Doc is going to insist on #1 happening. Problem is #1 might not be able to happen. The players might just not be good enough to play together as a unit no matter how good the superstar you leave in there to play with them. They have little height or length, poor shooting, poor passers and almost no chemisty. The group is just a bad fit together.

So Danny had better do #3 because I don't see #1 or #2 happening too soon.

[hpantazo]

Well, IMO, TA and Big Baby both sucked last night, and most nights this season. All second half I was wondering if Doc forgot that Leon is on the team.

Why is Baby first off the bench? Are they trying to showcase him?

Well if he is, that certainly backfired. Somehow i don't see other teams lining up after that performance.

However, It did get KG's attention.

Lol! Yea, showcasing him by having him guard Oden, who was tossing Perk around like a rag doll, was a great idea. Boy do we need a real backup center!

[QuinielaBox]

Doc has been simply outcoached on this road trip, theres no question about it...opposing teams know exactly whats coming and they gameplan around when our crappy bench comes in

Doc was outcoached last night in Portland. He had no answers for Portland's front court superiority in numbers. Did Powe even have a rebound or point last night? I don't remember. Did Doc try a small lineup to induce Portland Turnovers? No.

In Golden State, they were absolutely whipped in the 4th quarter. That was disappointing.

In Los Angelos and Portland, the other teams simply wanted it more. I think the Celtics have another gear that enables them to win those tough games. If not, then Danny will find people to do the job.

i agree that last night's game would have been a primo "small ball" game. it would have forced POR to adjust their huge advantage on the blocks where Powe and BBD were totally overpowered by Oden, Aldirdge and Pryzb....

but alas, we do not have a really effective samll ball unit this year sans Posey....personally i think that our inability to go to that lineup is  the biggest loss from not having Pose.

I thought Tony Allen could do the job Posey did. Ainge and Doc must have thought the same thing. I have kept Gabe Pruitt and even Brian Scalabrine in the back of my mind using a small ball lineup of Pruitt, House, TA, Powe and Scalabrine. They would force other teams to play quicker but instead Portland got comfortable in their half court sets against House, TA, Powe, BBD, and Pierce/RA which clearly did not work (and I don't even need to consult the popcornmachine and Play-by-Play game tapes for confirmation).... TP for Winsomme

[winsomme]

The teams goes as Rondo goes. Rondo didn't go and the team got stuck with a 1-3 road record. Rondo needs to step up his play on the road. He's too good to be such a night and day player depending on whether or not it's a home game or not.

I thought Rondo played well last night and for most of the road trip. It's not his fault if Ray won't give up the ball on a fast break or that Perk has tennis rackets for hands. The team was red hot in the 1st quarter and then Doc's watch went off, House got in, and things went downhill from there.

I don't think Rondo played poorly Chief, but his play is indicative of the team as a whole.  Yesterday's game he had five assists and three steals in the first quarter. He finished with seven assists and three steals.  I believe he did the same thing in the GS game.

  This is, I think, one of Doc's main flaws as coach. He leaves Rondo on the bench way too long in the 2nd quarter. It killed us in at least 3-4 games in the playoffs last year. He takes Rondo out at the end of the 1st quarter (which is fine) and then tries to get as many minutes as possible from House (or Sam last spring). We gradually lose our momentum and the other team gets a better flow going. Doc stems the tide by putting Paul and KG back in and eventually puts Rondo back in after 6-7 minutes (which is probably 10-12 minutes real time). By then our offense has no flow and Rondo's coming in cold because he was on the bench for so long. On one hand, people are discussing whether Rajon should be an all-star. Pierce says he's probably the best pg in the east. But he's 19th among pgs in minutes per game.

but that just gives less minutes to the one player that we know can contribute on a consistent basis...

  He's not the only plahyer who can contribute on a consistent basis. All of the starters are capable of that. I'm not saying to give his minutes to Tony Allen or Glen Davis. Just to Rondo.

and like i said in another post, playing the starters more with the bench is just going to mean less time that the starters play together....and their play with each other is what is keeping us winning...

  Putting Rondo in a little earlier in the 2nd quarter will increase his time with the starters, not reduce it.

i agree that Rondo could play a little more, but i don't think that is the answer and the minutes he is playing, he is getting pounded...so overall i don't want him in the 40 MPG range...i think that could easily leave us without him at all at crunch time.

 I didn't say he needed to play 40 minutes a game. But plenty of pgs play 36-37.

so you are saying that the starting unit is losing its flow because Rondo isn't playing enough with them?

i think that is different than what is mostly being suggested here that Rondo needs to play more minutes and play those minutes with the bench to get them better shots because they seem to be rudderless at the moment.

personally if i were going to play Rondo more minutes (i wouldn't go past 35 MPG) i would have him play with either PP or RA with the rest bench guys just to see if he could be a spark for them.

i wouldn't:

A play him the same minutes and take some away from with the starters and shift to the bench .

or

B i wouldn't play him more minutes with the starters if i increased his MPG total because i'm not seeing the starting unit as the problem right now.

i am attributing any current struggles with the starters to being worn out due to having to carry more of the load this year, not that Rondo isn't playing enough with them.

that's just what i am seeing anyway..

[housecall]

What if Pruitt gets some minutes in the future and proves to be a bust? What's next? Doc left bench players for too long? How many minutes have the starters played? We're one of the teams in the entire league where the bench players see less minutes, especially if you discount what they get in garbage time.

Fans love to moan about the coaches micro-management. 95% of the work of the coach is done before the tip off, but, for some odd reason, fans believe those 5% - that, btw, are much harder to assess - is what matters and impacts the winning record.

Maybe you should consider that this bench is being maximized as of now. They just aren't better than this.

How is the bench being maximized?  Are the players being put in position to do what they do best, or are they asked to do things that are not their strengths?  

TP for help me make some of my points in this thread.