Author Topic: The Bench is not the Problem  (Read 13971 times)

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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2008, 10:17:13 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  


Why do the starters have to play more minutes if they are mixed in with the bench more often? 

Just adjust the rotational pattern.  Keep the minutes roughly the same. 

Like what? It's easier to be said than done. How many minutes have we played with only one starter on the floor during yesterday's game second half?


It is not that hard.  Take starter A out sooner.  Give starter A the same amount of rest.  Then put starter A back in.  It just takes 10 minutes to sit down and adjust when players come in and out. 


It should be no minutes with only one starter in unless it is a blowout.  The bench is to weak to be on the court in full force. 

But mixed with starters, they can play a more specific role that they can be more successful with.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2008, 10:18:52 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Neither ray nor paul can make this bench look good...


Not by themselves.  Throw in a KG, Rondo or Perkins, suddenly the team on the floor doesn't have so many shortcomings.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2008, 10:34:36 AM »

Offline amenhotep04

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The original post is correct.  It's not how many minutes people are playing, it's how those minutes are used and distributed throughout the game.

Doc has a history of not integrating bench players with the first unit. He in the past has been criticized for leaving starters in too long.  This is just more of the same. He needs to rotate players earlier and more often.

Even last year the rule was to always have at least two of the big three on the court at the same time.  And if you want to minimize this, you sit players for shorter amounts of time, as well as play for shorter amounts of time.  It's not rocket science. This would allow weaker players to not be exploited as much.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2008, 10:46:08 AM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

This one, cordobes?  http://www.celticsblog.com/2008/12/20/698287/musings-bout-doc-and-the-b

Thanks as always for promoting.   ;)

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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2008, 10:47:29 AM »

Offline cordobes

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From 8 minutes to go in the 2nd quarter till the end of the game, we were outscored by 16 points. During those 32 minutes, how many of them we had less than 2 starters on the floor?

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2008, 10:48:57 AM »

Offline kenmaine

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Sorry, but the bench IS the problem. It's not a horrible bench by any means, but since Doc likes to use at least 4 bench players together as a unit, it gets ugly sometimes.
TA and Baby have been awful lately. I don't know if he'll help, but Pruitt should be getting a chance.
Just get Joe Smith and get it over with.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2008, 10:49:04 AM »

Offline cordobes

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The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

This one, cordobes?  http://www.celticsblog.com/2008/12/20/698287/musings-bout-doc-and-the-b

Thanks as always for promoting.   ;)

-sw

Exactly, Steve, thanks for the link.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2008, 11:14:45 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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The bench is the problem.

The bench -- as currently constituted - will not allow the C's to get past Cleveland in the playoffs.   It's currently undersized and because of the lack of Posey, they cannot go small as effectively as they could a year ago. 

I hope everyone is also understanding the value of CONSISTENCY in the NBA.  You pretty much know what Posey is going to give you each night.  Tony Allen is trick or treat.  No shame on that -- it's just what he is and he ain't changing. 

Patience is required. 

They don't have a lot of tradable commodities that will bring back what they need so Danny is going to have to grab an out of favor veteran or two late in the year -- or roll the dice and deal a rotation player like Powe or BB and I don't think that's a wise move right now.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2008, 11:45:26 AM »

Offline celticmaestro

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Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.


Then why put all those issues on the floor at once? 

Mix them in with the starters where those shortcomings are not so evident.

I agree. But we should have a good enough bench not to overload our starters with minutes. Which leads me to the conclusion that the bench is the problem.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2008, 11:46:45 AM »

Offline 2short

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I've had the kool aid thoughts that doc is giving the starters rest and getting the bench guys as many minutes as he can at THIS point of the season.  Being later in the year start cutting minutes.  Mind you I've knocked doc quite a bit since he arrived, nice guy not the best coach.  He should have Ray, Rondo or PP on the floor at ALL times.
IMO here is what I'd like to see.  Don't put 2 guard slashers on the court at same time tony & rondo, if ray or eddie aren't in use pruitt.  I actually like the backcourt of pruitt as pg or sg depending on whose in.  I love eddies gunner attitude and he possibly hustles more on d than anyone on team but his speed, height and ball handling  ::) .  Also why not more pt for Rondo, he was KILLING the blazers last night and doc had him sitting for a fair amount of time.  Limit Davis' minutes I just don't see it, love leon as pf.  Give POB 5 minutes a game if he sucks then place him back at the end of the bench.  We need length when perk & kg aren't in.  Davis works hard but if he doesn't hit that outside j we really don't need an oversized short pf diving for loose balls that should not be loose!
I personally think the team is looking great with a bump; thats it.  I've seen us win more games this year already in different ways.  Different top scorers, different ways of winning w/ d, hot shooting, ball movement etc.
Yes joe smith would be a great p/u .

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2008, 11:49:45 AM »

Offline Fox40Kid

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Some great points going on here, but I don't see it as just being the bench as much as it is the lack of veteran's on the bench.  Take Sam I Am and the rookies out of the mix and our 7 remaining bench players have 25 years of NBA experience, as apposed to our starters (who are a mix of young and old) with 42 years of experience.

If there is indeed a trade or someone is picked up I think an experienced player is what is needed to improve on this bench.  I don't see Doc mixing the starters with the bench that much.
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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2008, 11:55:29 AM »

Offline crownsy

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Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.


Then why put all those issues on the floor at once? 

Mix them in with the starters where those shortcomings are not so evident.

I agree. But we should have a good enough bench not to overload our starters with minutes. Which leads me to the conclusion that the bench is the problem.

another problem is that rajon (and to some degree perk) are included in the "kepe the starters under 35 average for the year" goal.

Rajon is 22, he can play 40 minutes like alot of other yougner starters around the league. That would help our bench A TON. i'd rather have rondo and one other starter out there with 3 of the bench guys than 4 bench guys who can't create thier own offense and one starting wing (ray/pierce)

the problem for that bench is creation, not effort. rondo would help them out immesly (Leon + baby would get far better looks off penetraion, something they dont get right now for one. Eddie could spot up and shoot off drives, ect)
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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2008, 12:27:25 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.


Then why put all those issues on the floor at once? 

Mix them in with the starters where those shortcomings are not so evident.

but the reason that Doc is going to the starters more is because the bench is simply not producing regardless of who is on the floor...

keeping the starters together more is one of the main reasons that we have been winning games, but they are wearing down...

i think splitting the starters up more would just mean more losses at this point.

the bench needs to step up their play and THEN Doc can play the starters less together. not the other way around.

and DA needs to really start working the phones because we need a backup SF....

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2008, 12:36:50 PM »

Offline LB3533

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We were outscored by the Blazers 51-41 in the 2nd half.

The 3rd quarter we managed 19 points (Starters fault).

The 4th quarter, Pierce scored our last 10 points, he was basically our only option. We had our starting unit to finish the game since the 7:13 mark of the 4th and we were outscored by an undermanned Blazers team 19-16 to finish the game.

We also had 4 turnovers in the 4th quarter and 2 were late crucial turnovers, one by KG and the other by Rondo.

Starters aren't playing nearly as well as they can or should.


Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2008, 12:46:54 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

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We need an actual bigman and a sf for the bench. We've lost too many leads in the second and 4th due to the bench.