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Other Discussions => Entertainment => Off Topic => Movies => Topic started by: Donoghus on December 15, 2017, 10:28:40 AM

Title: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Donoghus on December 15, 2017, 10:28:40 AM
Figured I'd start a thread about it.   Taking a half day today and seeing a 1:30 showing.  Can't wait.  Big expectations for this film based both on having Rian Johnson as a director & the early reviews.  Was not a big "Force Awakens" fan so really hoping this movie lives up to its hype. 
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Roy H. on December 15, 2017, 10:30:02 AM
I’m in the theater now. Scheduled to start in one minute.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Donoghus on December 15, 2017, 10:30:38 AM
I’m in the theater now. Scheduled to start in one minute.

Enjoy!!!
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Roy H. on December 15, 2017, 10:35:21 AM
I’m in the theater now. Scheduled to start in one minute.

Enjoy!!!

Thanks! It’s packed for a 10:30 showing, and apparently all 9 shows here sold out last night.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: bopna on December 15, 2017, 12:31:00 PM
I dont get the hate that some so called die hard fans are throwing out there...they hated TFA because it just basically mimicked ANH. Now that Last Jedi tried to be bold and did some things never before done in the Star Wars universe and people still hate it.

I personally feel ok with the film...but there are still questions left that needs to be addressed hopefully by episode 9.

Like do we really haveto believe Rey is really a nobody...yet she uses the Force like no other force user can...heck she could even be better than Vader.

And I really have no idea how they are gonna kill off Leia in the next film..and will Luke still be in it?...force ghost perhaps.

Wouldn't it be fitting to see all the force ghost of every single Jedi that have graced the franchise in the next film...would be cool to see Quigon with Obiwan and Luke in it as well.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Roy H. on December 15, 2017, 01:21:27 PM
Things I didn’t like:

Adam Driver was simply miscast.  He’s not convincing to me, and his battles seem stiff. He was better here than in TFA, but not by much. Too much angst, not enough badass.

Rey’s grasp of the force seems to dwarf every other user’s, including Vader, Luke, Yoda, etc.  She’s basically a super hero who has a full grasp on her powers as soon as she realizes she has them.

Too many characters seem to have one-movie arcs.

Things I liked:

Just about everything else. Even the cutesy kids stuff was fun.

Overall, this was my favorite movie outside of the original trilogy.  A lot will depend on how they wrap things up in Episode 9, but as a stand-alone moviethis was really entertaining and doesn’t diminish the franchise in any sense.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: blink on December 15, 2017, 01:48:06 PM
ok I am a major star wars nerd, and ended up at a 12:45am imax 3d showing last night. 

I had high expectations of the film based on all the spoiler free reviews that I saw prior to seeing it.  I don't think it quite lived up to everyone's hype, for me at least.  It was stunning and mysterious at times, but it was also a bit disjointed.  The interactions between Rey / Kylo / Luke were the highlight of the film to me.  the whole sub plot of finn and rose seemed a bit of a waste.

there was such build up and subterfuge around the Rey parents reveal which to me was a complete let down.  the film did succeed in being unpredictable but major plot points in the force awakens were basically thrown to the side or not even addressed.  I know there is still ep9 to tie this back together....

I still enjoyed it a lot, but how they handled the fates of Snoke & Luke, and the cohesiveness with the force awakens has me a bit disappointed.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Roy H. on December 15, 2017, 02:20:46 PM
Also, Luke Skywalker and Frank Gallagher (William H. Macy from Shameless), separated at birth?

(http://media.comicbook.com/2017/10/star-wars-the-last-jedi-new-photo-luke-skywalker-journal-of-the--1040411-1280x0.jpg)

(https://img1.etsystatic.com/074/0/5650648/il_570xN.809642363_bhcs.jpg)
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Onslaught on December 15, 2017, 05:57:36 PM
I'm a big Star Wars fan. Saw it last night and was really disappointed. Didn't like the story all that much and found it full of WAY too many dumb jokes. Can't really talk about it too much without giving things away but I won't be seeing it again or buying it.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Donoghus on December 15, 2017, 06:25:37 PM
A lot to chew & digest here.  My initial thoughts.

- Better than The Force Awakens

- Not thrilled with how much of a curmudgeon they made Luke. C’mon, that’s Luke Skywalker we’re talking about!  It was tough to see him so beaten down.

- Disappointed with how they handled Snoke.  Thought they could’ve done much better with his character.

- The Leia in space thing was pretty wacky but, overall, was fine with how they handled her character. Glad you got to see some her of power (Force & non-Force).

- The Canto Bight stuff seemed rushed which is a shame because it seemed like an awesome world to
explore.

- I did like the end with Luke but would’ve liked to see more badassery out of him. See where his training post Return of the Jedi got him.

- Glad they didn’t rehash Empire. It had some elements but much different middle film.

- No idea about Episode IX and where it goes.

- Loved all the new aliens and stuff they created.  Good job with the special effects there.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 16, 2017, 12:29:25 PM
I definitely originally thought it would just be a redo of Empire. It definitely wasn't.

Loved what they did with it. Liked the implication that there would always be evil and always be good to oppose it no matter what.

Mildly disappointed with the Snoke character scenario.

Liked what they did with the Force.

Liked the vision Disney seemed to show and the answers they seemed to give. Kinda like "We don't need a perfect reason for everything and we don't have to always answer every one of your questions. Learn to let go of these attachments of what you think or thought Star Wars was and should be."

I rank the movie in probably the top 4 or 5 of the 9.

For my own personal entertainment value...idk

Clone Wars
ROTS
ESB
ROTJ
Rogue One
Last Jedi
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: manl_lui on December 16, 2017, 02:19:32 PM
I’m in the theater now. Scheduled to start in one minute.

Enjoy!!!

Thanks! It’s packed for a 10:30 showing, and apparently all 9 shows here sold out last night.

when you got a movie at 1, but bleeding green is life :)
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: makaveli on December 16, 2017, 02:36:10 PM
It would have been a decent movie but some scenes were just blatantly awful:

- Leia recovers from being launched into space, spends like 30 sec there ( -276 degrees) and wakes up and "uses the force" to get back. Any other movie, i'm walking out
- someone already mentioned, Snoke dies instantly
-they just can't kill the black fella. The excecution takes forever, than the explosion, than he tries to sacrafice, the girl saves him(Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.) he lands in front of the whole army and manages to drag her body a mile back without anyone shooting at him.


just overally speaking the whole series so far  have been a huge disappointment. it turns out that after episode VI when they defeat the Empire, 20 years after that, they are even in a bigger trouble, out of nowhere. where was that snoke before, he looks ancient.
I expected more but i guess the series is ment for the new generations.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: gouki88 on December 16, 2017, 03:37:34 PM
Not a fan at all. I'm a pretty big Star Wars lore guy, and this just p****d me off so much in some bits
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 16, 2017, 04:22:33 PM
Not a fan at all. I'm a pretty big Star Wars lore guy, and this just p****d me off so much in some bits
When you say lore do you mean the EU or something?
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 16, 2017, 08:14:38 PM
Overall, and excellent Star Wars movie, in the top 3 imo. I think what will bother a lot of people is what makes it great, it challenges many views and expectations held by hard core Star Wars fans.

The depth added to each character is a huge improvement over The Force Awakens. We see flaws in Poe , Rey, in the Rebellion leadership group, even in Luke himself and in turn why someone becomes 'good' or 'evil' is less clear cut. For example the change in how we view Laura Dern's character from good, to evil, and then to heroic all in a shot time frame based on a change in viewpoint is fantastic.

I particularly love what they do with updating the perspective of The Force, in Luke's conversations with Rey and his scenes with Yoda, which are golden. The idea that the force does not belong to anyone and not to any religion, even the Jedi, and is not a power to be exploited but instead a balance of forces (life/death, good/evil, etc.) that was also reaffirmed by Yoda later was excellent.

The main message that anyone can be special, you don''t need to be the child of someone great, is also an inspiring tone for young audiences. The final scene with the random boy with the broom who shows force powers reaffirms that theme. That said, I am still betting Kylo Ren lied to Rey about her parents being random losers.

My only disappointment, as others noted, is the lack of backstory on Snoke. I'm ok with his easy death in the middle, it was within the theme of destroying strong fan beliefs, and also doubles down on Kylo Ren's jealousy, insecurity and rage over his so called good side. The way Snoke played both Rey and Kylo telepathically to make her come there and reveal Luke's location was really cool though.

Lastly, Luke's sendoff was done extremely well and was totally badass. They did justice to his character. I'm so glad he was not killed by an inferior foe.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: MasterEmile on December 16, 2017, 09:22:45 PM
Exellent movie, can't say enough good things about it. Although it had some issues:

-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

- Although I liked snoke's death I was really hoping for at least some backstory or a cool fight scene. Like what IS Snoke ?

- Some problems with the cutting and editing, maybe I'm just not used to the director.

Positives:
- The entire cast is perfect, acting is top notch. Adam Driver , Daisy Ridley and of course Mark Hamill shine the brightest.

-Insane visuals and fighting scenes. Best by far in the series.

-The unpredictability. Rey's parents are nobodies, Snoke and Luke die, Kylo and Rey almost turning...

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

-Complete character arcs. Po from crazy pilot to responsible leader. Finn from a coward trying to flee the FO to being ready to risk his life to the cause, twice. Kylo from being on the edge(not killing his mom) to fully embracing the dark side.

-Great comedy.

-Amazing attention to details.

Can go on and on ....
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: go11celtics on December 16, 2017, 10:47:31 PM
Exellent movie, can't say enough good things about it. Although it had some issues:

-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

- Although I liked snoke's death I was really hoping for at least some backstory or a cool fight scene. Like what IS Snoke ?

- Some problems with the cutting and editing, maybe I'm just not used to the director.

Positives:
- The entire cast is perfect, acting is top notch. Adam Driver , Daisy Ridley and of course Mark Hamill shine the brightest.

-Insane visuals and fighting scenes. Best by far in the series.

-The unpredictability. Rey's parents are nobodies, Snoke and Luke die, Kylo and Rey almost turning...

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

-Complete character arcs. Po from crazy pilot to responsible leader. Finn from a coward trying to flee the FO to being ready to risk his life to the cause, twice. Kylo from being on the edge(not killing his mom) to fully embracing the dark side.

-Great comedy.

-Amazing attention to details.

Can go on and on ....

This is pretty much exactly how I felt, especially with your first point about Rey/Ren/Luke.

Only other drawback was the Leia space scene. Just too ridiculous in my opinion.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Tr1boy on December 17, 2017, 01:15:56 AM
Excellent film

Haters blasted the last 4 recent star wars...yet still are the 1st ones to lineup for the last jedi and will be first ones to lineup to watch the next star wars etc

Hilarious
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Chief on December 17, 2017, 07:53:53 AM
I'm not real excited about the next one.  :-[
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 17, 2017, 08:09:41 AM
Exellent movie, can't say enough good things about it. Although it had some issues:

-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

- Although I liked snoke's death I was really hoping for at least some backstory or a cool fight scene. Like what IS Snoke ?

- Some problems with the cutting and editing, maybe I'm just not used to the director.

Positives:
- The entire cast is perfect, acting is top notch. Adam Driver , Daisy Ridley and of course Mark Hamill shine the brightest.

-Insane visuals and fighting scenes. Best by far in the series.

-The unpredictability. Rey's parents are nobodies, Snoke and Luke die, Kylo and Rey almost turning...

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

-Complete character arcs. Po from crazy pilot to responsible leader. Finn from a coward trying to flee the FO to being ready to risk his life to the cause, twice. Kylo from being on the edge(not killing his mom) to fully embracing the dark side.

-Great comedy.

-Amazing attention to details.

Can go on and on ....

This is exactly how I feel as well. I appreciate it for what it was.

I'm a huge face of scifi, but I still want scifi story lines to follow scifi logic. I struggled to stay in the story at times because of their forced plot mechanics (ie. the rebel ship had enough power to get out of the main range of the firing of the first order ship, but not enough to continue to pull away). This is coming from a huge Treky and Dr. Who fan, who mastered the art of the forced plot mechanic.

That said, you can't ask for a better cast, a better pay off with Kylo and Rey, and a better crazy old Jedi than Luke.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 17, 2017, 08:47:09 AM
Quote
-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

So you disliked the story of Finn and Rose, characters who matter but wanted more story elsewhere.

I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.   You will enjoy things more if you do this...
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 17, 2017, 09:23:14 AM
My only minor issue with it is I would think it would be common practice to ram a ship at light speed and you could easily just send a droid to do it. They could have used the other ships
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: MasterEmile on December 17, 2017, 10:38:13 AM
Quote
-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

So you disliked the story of Finn and Rose, characters who matter but wanted more story elsewhere.

I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.   You will enjoy things more if you do this...

Well I really loved the movie (you kinda skipped that part).

Some things in the movie I really found boring, while other parts I really found interesting. Doesn't mean I was picking the movie apart it just means I wasn't "entertained" during a part of the movie.

And does Finn and Rose being important characters mean I have to care about everything they are doing?
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Goldstar88 on December 17, 2017, 10:52:26 AM
It was one of the worst movies I've seen in a long time. Disney ruined Star Wars for me.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Roy H. on December 17, 2017, 11:11:49 AM
Quote
I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.

I agree. I’ve found myself thinking “well, that could have been better” and “that didn’t make a ton of sense” after the fact. In the moment, though, I really enjoyed it. Was it worth the price of admission? Heck, yes.

Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Sketch5 on December 17, 2017, 11:58:25 AM
Saw it twice on Thursday, and I like it much more the second time when the anticipation had passed and I could digest it for a couple hours. Second time around I just watched it and looked for the small things.

Complaining about Leia's scene and putting "science" into the argument is a little weak, remember, nothing actually explodes in space with fire but it happens all the time. But an other Jedi had done the same thing in the clone wars so it's possible in Star Wars lore.

A little too slap sticky at times, but really good over all.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: jackpercussion on December 17, 2017, 12:27:43 PM
There will be another Star Wars' movie to explain Stokes role.

Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 17, 2017, 12:56:50 PM
I disagree with those who say Finn and Rose's story was useless. It actually serves several important points beyond just reminding us of the expanse of the Star Wars universe by showing us a new world with new characters and creatures and some cool action.

1) It is an important story for showing us an example of why the First Order is so terrible and has to be taken down. We never really saw much to explain why the Empire was so detrimental to everyday people in the past. The scenes with Rose on the Casino world illustrate how the First Order impacts everyday people, turning her family and others into slaves and forcing them to a lifetime of hard labor for the entertainment and profit of the ruling class, including those who 'buy and sell weapons to both sides". This is a critical illustration and a strong reference to today's society.

In that sense, that story also illustrates how the Rebellion/Resistance is growing in that working class/slave population, through Rose, but even more through the kids working on that Casino with their secret rings displaying the symbol of the Resistance, it is kept hush hush, which may be why nobody responds to Lea's distress calls, but they are there, and they are growing. The legends of Luke Skywalker and others have helped them to have some mythical figures to believe in.

2) The same story also reinforces the point made earlier when Lea told Poe he failed by going out on his own and disobeying orders, because although he killed the main craft of the First Order, he cost the Resistance several lives.

In this story with Finn and Rose, they again go out on their own and disobey orders for heroic purpose, and for lack of trust in their leadership. It backfires very badly. Not only do they get captured and fail to destroy the tracker, they inadvertently, through Del'Toro's character, reveal the escape plan of the Resistance to the First Order, and that is the major reason why the First Order gets decimated and ends up cornered and in ruins on the salt planet.

Throughout this episode, the point is made to trust in each other if you hope to make progress. Poe and Finn try to be heroes and almost get the Resistance totally destroyed.

Luke did not trust in himself and in Ben, and Ben did not trust in Luke, which causes Ben to become Kylo Ren, and causes Luke to cut himself off from the Force and the world in general.

3) Lastly, the story of Rose and Finn culminates in Rose risking her life to stop Finn from sacrificing himself to destroy the cannon. It ends with the line from Rose that " We should protect the things we love , not destroy the things we hate. That's how we win". This is a major point in the movie and a direct reference to current events. Suicide bombers don't accomplish anything by trying to destroy the things they hate, they should ban together and protect the things they love, the purity and brilliance of their religion and culture. Similarly, in current U.S. politics, trying to destroy the other side by sacrificing yourself and your ideals does not get us anywhere, trusting in each other and protecting the things that are good is much more effective.

Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 17, 2017, 01:14:25 PM
Quote
-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

So you disliked the story of Finn and Rose, characters who matter but wanted more story elsewhere.

I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.   You will enjoy things more if you do this...

Although just because you went to a movie to have a good time doesn't mean you will have a good time. Force awakens was pretty good. rogue one was very good. Last Jedi was bad.

The central plot of of trying to outrun the bad guys while a hero goes to a casino for help was like a bad plot out of the 1980s battlestar gallactica. I didn't know which character I was supposed to feel attached too. There was no emotional investment. Characters and plot points resolved too quickly. Too many lame jokes, like a shirtless Kylo Ren... The lame joes felt more like Guardians of the Galaxy than Star Wars.

And most of all, this movie tried to ruin Luke Skywalker and all the triumphs of the rebellion in Return of the Jedi.  Luke is a failed teacher, attempted murderer, grumpy loser, and a jerk. Great, that's not very entertaining. So much for the mythology and hero's journey that made the original trilogy so great.

Anyway, if you liked it cool. Enjoy. Adventure movies in particular are indeed made for popcorn entertainment. But if someone doesn't like it, don't point the finger at the viewer for having a bad experience. There are many more reasons than what I listed for a person to not like this movie.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 17, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
Quote
-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

So you disliked the story of Finn and Rose, characters who matter but wanted more story elsewhere.

I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.   You will enjoy things more if you do this...

Although just because you went to a movie to have a good time doesn't mean you will have a good time. Force awakens was pretty good. rogue one was very good. Last Jedi was bad.

The central plot of of trying to outrun the bad guys while a hero goes to a casino for help was like a bad plot out of the 1980s battlestar gallactica. I didn't know which character I was supposed to feel attached too. There was no emotional investment. Characters and plot points resolved too quickly. Too many lame jokes, like a shirtless Kylo Ren... The lame joes felt more like Guardians of the Galaxy than Star Wars.

And most of all, this movie tried to ruin Luke Skywalker and all the triumphs of the rebellion in Return of the Jedi.  Luke is a failed teacher, attempted murderer, grumpy loser, and a jerk. Great, that's not very entertaining. So much for the mythology and hero's journey that made the original trilogy so great.

Anyway, if you liked it cool. Enjoy. Adventure movies in particular are indeed made for popcorn entertainment. But if someone doesn't like it, don't point the finger at the viewer for having a bad experience. There are many more reasons than what I listed for a person to not like this movie.

I disagree with your take on Luke. He is far from a jerk, he is too caring if anything. He sacrifices himself to save Lea and what is left of the resistance, and makes it a point to comfort her through his spectral self despite the cost it takes on him when doing so. He is a jerk the same way Yoda was when he first met him. The portrayal of Luke was outstanding. He is at the same point Obi Wan was when we first saw both characters in Episode IV. He is too hurt with his past failure of Kylo Ren going to the dark side to allow himself to help anyone, like Obi Wan was after he failed with Vader. The twist this story takes from there reflects what Yoda tells him, one of the best lines of the film imo "The greatest teacher, failure is Luke. We are what they grow beyond. That is the burden of all true masters."

The past failure is the best lesson of all, it is what will make the next generation even greater if we pass on that lesson instead of hiding it.

This portrayal of Luke also shows that the legend of Luke Skywalker is having a tremendous impact across the galaxy, inspiring young kids everywhere. As with all heroes and legends though, the reality is different.

In the end we see Luke demonstrate the greatest, most impressive command of the Force we have ever seen, and then go off after becoming one with the Force at peace, with future purpose. Powerful stuff.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 17, 2017, 01:31:07 PM
It was a jerk move to flippantly toss the light saber over the cliff after Rey hands it to him. And then regularly scold her and slam doors on her etc. he behaved like an immature teenager. Obi wan was a failed teacher, but he carried himself with dignity. Is it too much for Luke to carry himself with dignity. And yet still be resistant to get get involved with the force and resistance?
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 17, 2017, 01:32:04 PM
It was a jerk move to flippantly toss the light saber over the cliff after Rey hands it to him. And then regularly scold her and slam doors on her etc. he behaved like an immature teenager. Obi wan was a failed teacher, but he carried himself with dignity. Is it too much for Luke to carry himself with dignity. And yet still be resistant to get get involved with the force and resistance?

Did you not see Yoda's behavior when Luke first met him? People learn these reactions from their teachers and their experiences. It was his way of protecting Rey.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 17, 2017, 01:36:08 PM
I don't remember Yoda flippantly tossing a prized Possesion over a cliff or slamming doors on Luke.

Instead Yoda invited him into his home, fed him, all the while perhaps testing Luke's patience. Yoda was mischievous, but still had dignity.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 17, 2017, 01:41:00 PM
I don't remember Yoda flippantly tossing a prized Possesion over a cliff or slamming doors on Luke.

Instead Yoda invited him into his home, fed him, all the while perhaps testing Luke's patience. Yoda was mischievous, but still had dignity.

I think you should rewatch the Empire Stikes Back then. At first, Yoda was a total jerk, with a complete lack of class who also looked mentally and physically incompetent. He portrayed himself that way on purpose to see how Luke would react to him. Luke of course had no patience and it did not start off well.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 17, 2017, 01:47:55 PM
I don't remember Yoda flippantly tossing a prized Possesion over a cliff or slamming doors on Luke.

Instead Yoda invited him into his home, fed him, all the while perhaps testing Luke's patience. Yoda was mischievous, but still had dignity.

I think you should rewatch the Empire Stikes Back then. At first, Yoda was a total jerk, with a complete lack of class who also looked mentally incompetent. He portrayed himself that way on purpose to see how Luke would react to him.

I thought your arguement was that Luke was far from a jerk.

I dsagree on your take of Yoda. I think he was being playful as a way of testing Luke. He still invited Luke into his house for a warm meal and took him out of the rain.

Hey if you like Last Jedi, please enjoy. I am not trying to change anyone's opinion. I didn't like it for the opinions that I listed. I didn't like how Luke was portrayed. If you did, cool, enjoy.

I just don't want someone to say that a viewer is wrong if they didn't enjoy a particular movie. Entertainment is subjective.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 17, 2017, 02:04:19 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 17, 2017, 02:23:35 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 17, 2017, 03:00:49 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 17, 2017, 03:05:20 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.


I agree with Eja. What Luke learned, in large part from Rey, is what helped him attain true peace and disappear into the force. It was a new twist on the old interaction of master and apprentice we saw in the past, with many layers. Really well written and perfectly executed imo.

If she showed up, Luke welcomed her, and told he she was his daughter and said lets train to take down Snoke, it would have been a totally lame, cheese fest.

In the long run, if you want the franchise to continue into the future and maintain its strength, you need to proceed forward with the story instead of retelling the same old story with new people.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 17, 2017, 03:19:34 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.

You were happy with Luke. I wasn’t. I respect your opinion. You want to dismiss mine.

I can understand why Luke is in isolation and is resisting the call to adventure.i don’t like the premise that Luke would have seriously contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep. And I didnt find joy in watching Luke behaving like a jerk to Rey for most of the movie. It was a note that got repetitive and boring quickly. There is a lot in this story I think is lame. There were probably 10-20 things I didn’t like. If that number were cut in half I might have liked it. That’s my opinion.

Again you liked it cool. Just don’t dismiss others because they didn’t like it. What’s the point in that?




Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 17, 2017, 03:38:13 PM
Let’s try to alter course by offering celebration of what was good! Here’s some:

The contrast of red ground under white salt looked beautiful during the battle.

The salt jackles looked cool.

The reunion of key characters was great.

I was glad to see more of Poe in this movie.

I want to be respectful of the joy many of you had with the movie. Just don’t tell those of us who didn’t like it that we are wrong to feel that way.

Go Celtics!


Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 17, 2017, 03:56:31 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.

You were happy with Luke. I wasn’t. I respect your opinion. You want to dismiss mine.

I can understand why Luke is in isolation and is resisting the call to adventure.i don’t like the premise that Luke would have seriously contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep. And I didnt find joy in watching Luke behaving like a jerk to Rey for most of the movie. It was a note that got repetitive and boring quickly. There is a lot in this story I think is lame. There were probably 10-20 things I didn’t like. If that number were cut in half I might have liked it. That’s my opinion.

Again you liked it cool. Just don’t dismiss others because they didn’t like it. What’s the point in that?


No need to get defensive, nobody intended to dismiss your opinion. Your opinion is your right and your perspective. We are only giving our opinions and perspectives on the movie and the particular points in it that you brought up. That's how a discussion progresses. I think there is a great deal of depth to the movie that people can easily miss at first. I gave some detailed examples of it. You are free to describe why you think differently. We brought up many detailed reasons explaining our perspectives.

That's the great thing about something with such a widespread fanbase, there will be many varied opinions.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 17, 2017, 03:57:37 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.

You were happy with Luke. I wasn’t. I respect your opinion. You want to dismiss mine.

I can understand why Luke is in isolation and is resisting the call to adventure.i don’t like the premise that Luke would have seriously contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep. And I didnt find joy in watching Luke behaving like a jerk to Rey for most of the movie. It was a note that got repetitive and boring quickly. There is a lot in this story I think is lame. There were probably 10-20 things I didn’t like. If that number were cut in half I might have liked it. That’s my opinion.

Again you liked it cool. Just don’t dismiss others because they didn’t like it. What’s the point in that?
I wouldn't say I liked every single second of it, but I do find a lot of comparisons to the past to be either redundant or nostalgic. At this point I'm sorta with Kylo where it's time to let go of the past.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 17, 2017, 04:02:34 PM
I'm definitely not saying that someone has to like a specific movie or character or development, but I think nit picking or saying something has to or should be a certain way is different.

I suppose nobody has to think it's a great idea for Luke to try to kill his nephew, but that's what happened.

I feel bad for the EU people and definitely like some of the EU, but ultimately the EU is anti-movie and the movies are sorta where Star Wars lives and what it's all about.

If Luke doesn't make some mistakes he can't really be redeemed or redirected by Yoda. 

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make a good TV show out of all this to address a lot of stuff.


Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 17, 2017, 04:04:30 PM
I disagree with the desire for Luke to be a happy depthless guy and think it's hypocritical to be complaining about Kylo Ren being shirtless for 10 seconds while spending many hours of one's life looking at Slave Princess Leia like any American heterosexual male has.

Really, you think I was asking for Luke to be happy and depthless? You missed the point of my opinions entirely. And about shirtless Kylo. I couldn’t give a crap who’s skin I see. Please don’t imply that I am sexist. Thank you.
Basically. It sounds to me like you have totally missed the point that Luke went into isolation for a reason and that the reason is completely different than Yoda or Obi Wan and that he still has things to learn, partly from Rey.
Rey is essentially an unwanted and uninvited visitor.
Not everybody always wants to jump up and down at the first excuse of wanting to get the band back together again.

I am really annoyed at statements like "It was really different from what made the first 3 films great."  I mean...duh.  That's the entire point. And that was the problem with Force Awakens. It was a plagiarism of ANH. This one wasn't.

Maybe some Star Wars fans can just sit and watch those first three films and never watch anything else and refuse to let the franchise grow or change.  I don't prefer that at all.


What Luke learned, in large part from Rey, is what helped him attain true peace and disappear into the force. It was a new twist on the old interaction of master and apprentice we saw in the past, with many layers. Really well written and perfectly executed imo.

If she showed up, Luke welcomed her, and told he she was his daughter and said lets train to take down Snoke, it would have been a totally lame, cheese fest.

In the long run, if you want the franchise to continue into the future and maintain its strength, you need to proceed forward with the story instead of retelling the same old story with new people.
Ex.....act.....ly
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 17, 2017, 09:32:26 PM
So in between viewings of Star Wars and Shane it just occurred to me that maybe it's symbolic that the lightsaber that Anakin used to kill younglings was cut in half
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: gouki88 on December 18, 2017, 12:38:24 AM
Awful. Really really awful.

Couldn't be more apparent that a) Disney had effectively no lore guys on hand, b) the writers were completely clueless, and c) that the new director probably didn't watch episode 7.

The amount of stupid plot holes, awful script writing and generally nonsensical story made this one of the least enjoyable movies I've seen in a while, especially considering the hype.

Don't get me started on the pathetic failure that was the way they handled Snoke. Dear god
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Mr October on December 18, 2017, 04:53:39 AM
Eja and hpantazo,

After 2 days of thinking I really didn't like the movie, I felt a spark to see it again. And I have flipped to thinking the movie was awesome. TPs for the discussion earlier.

The movie absolutely shatters expectations, and after breaking down everything that bothered me, I realized just about everything makes sense. For example in Return of the Jedi, we didn't see Luke completely conquer the darkness within him. So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.

I may need to see it a 3rd time before it exits theaters.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 18, 2017, 07:35:27 AM
Eja and hpantazo,

After 2 days of thinking I really didn't like the movie, I felt a spark to see it again. And I have flipped to thinking the movie was awesome. TPs for the discussion earlier.

The movie absolutely shatters expectations, and after breaking down everything that bothered me, I realized just about everything makes sense. For example in Return of the Jedi, we didn't see Luke completely conquer the darkness within him. So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.

I may need to see it a 3rd time before it exits theaters.
That is an interesting theory. The film definitely lends itself towards some interpretation
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on December 18, 2017, 08:13:08 AM
Eja and hpantazo,

After 2 days of thinking I really didn't like the movie, I felt a spark to see it again. And I have flipped to thinking the movie was awesome. TPs for the discussion earlier.

The movie absolutely shatters expectations, and after breaking down everything that bothered me, I realized just about everything makes sense. For example in Return of the Jedi, we didn't see Luke completely conquer the darkness within him. So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.

I may need to see it a 3rd time before it exits theaters.



Glad to hear it Mr. October!! I find that the layers to the story are a lot to take in all in one viewing. That makes it easy to dismiss a lot of stuff at first, but its also what makes it such a great movie. TP for giving in an honest second chance.

I agree completely that Luke never did conquer the darkness in him. He was also always prone to impulse, much more than past master's like Yoda or Obi Wan. Him briefly contemplating to kill Ben in his sleep is totally in line with his character. He realized this after what happened, and shut himself off from the force and from everyone to prevent himself from being tempted again.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 18, 2017, 02:14:29 PM
This is an interesting way to look at it.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/24795/disney-kylo-ren-new-star-wars-films-ben-shapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/24795/disney-kylo-ren-new-star-wars-films-ben-shapiro)
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: blink on December 18, 2017, 03:23:31 PM
So while he rose to be a powerful Jedi, he was too flawed to be a powerful Jedi Master. With that in mind, he could have had a moment of weakness when he foresaw the destruction and raw darkness within Ben Solo.


I totally disagree with the thought that he didn't become a powerful jedi master.  We don't know what even defines a jedi 'master' in the post return of of the jedi world.  Luke basically did the most powerful thing we have ever seen a jedi do with the jedi astral projection / avatar thing.  We know Snoke was seriously afraid of Luke, as was Kylo.  You don't unload the kind of firepower Kylo does on Luke if you don't completely fear him.

I don't believe having a student turn to the dark side = not powerful master.  Both Yoda and Obiwan had students that turned to the dark side, are they not powerful jedi masters?  I would say they are the two most powerful ones.

I thought the Luke becoming one with the force was kind of a cop out for the writers.  It is a cliche to have the wise mentor die or in star wars disappear into the force.  I think that Rian should have found a way to make the Rey - Luke connection stronger and have Rey have more training before having Luke exit.  It completely takes away from what was set up in the Force Awakens.  IE Rey has a very powerful connection to Anakin and Luke, implied as a family connection.  I think to have Luke not train Rey (lets be straight up, he didn't train her in The Last Jedi) and not build their relationship completely derails the strong connection hinted (like a hammer on our heads) in the Force Awakens.  Maybe that connection between Rey and Luke will be strengthened in episode 9, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

I think it is idiotic that Rian didn't get more direction from the story story group about the big story issues that needed to get resolved:  Rey parents, Snoke going out like a punk, Luke dying / becoming one with the force.  Rian claimed that they left it all up to him.  Rian is either lying about deciding all of that on his own, or the star wars story group doesn't know what it is doing.


Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 18, 2017, 04:18:13 PM
I disliked the fish nurses. There. I said it.

I would have made them more like the Selkath
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Rondo2287 on December 18, 2017, 04:38:50 PM
I hated Leia floating back to the ship after they got blown up, that was annoying. 

I loved the fact that Luke feet didnt make the marks in the salt in retrospect, good touch. 

Still struggling with why Rey is good with the force and  lightsaber despite little to no actual training.   Comparing Luke raising his Xwing from the swamp and rey with the boulders is a little weird. 
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Birdman on December 18, 2017, 10:06:00 PM
Just saw it...I give it a 6 out of 10...little disappointed in it..really I don't see how they can go forward with same old plot..but with a billion dollar money maker I sure they will continue Star Wars for years to come
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: green_bballers13 on December 18, 2017, 10:55:08 PM
Just saw it...I give it a 6 out of 10...little disappointed in it..really I don't see how they can go forward with same old plot..but with a billion dollar money maker I sure they will continue Star Wars for years to come

I agree mostly, though I wasn't disappointed. Maybe we had different expectations. I assume the movies are going to be Jar Jar Binksy. I think it was 14 years ago when I came to the conclusion that its going to be hard for Star Wars to regain the buzz from the late 70's/early 80's.

This movie was good. Probably one of the best. Each successive movie has improved CGI, so its hard to objectively have a "best" Star Wars movie. The first 3 were all awesome, Revenge of the Sith was good and I liked Rogue One.

8/10

Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: kraidstar on December 19, 2017, 07:05:53 PM
Quote
-The Finn and Rose story really bogged down the film, removing that part would make this a way better movie.

-Snoke's death. Amazing moment with the lightsaber fight right behind it.  While I would've loved some backstory people forget that the emperor got introduced and killed in the OT with LESS backstory than Snoke.

So you disliked the story of Finn and Rose, characters who matter but wanted more story elsewhere.

I am going to give folks a word of advice.   Go to a movie to enjoy it not pick it apart.   It meant to be entertainment, not a time to play Rex Reed.   You will enjoy things more if you do this...

Although just because you went to a movie to have a good time doesn't mean you will have a good time. Force awakens was pretty good. rogue one was very good. Last Jedi was bad.

The central plot of of trying to outrun the bad guys while a hero goes to a casino for help was like a bad plot out of the 1980s battlestar gallactica. I didn't know which character I was supposed to feel attached too. There was no emotional investment. Characters and plot points resolved too quickly. Too many lame jokes, like a shirtless Kylo Ren... The lame joes felt more like Guardians of the Galaxy than Star Wars.

And most of all, this movie tried to ruin Luke Skywalker and all the triumphs of the rebellion in Return of the Jedi.  Luke is a failed teacher, attempted murderer, grumpy loser, and a jerk. Great, that's not very entertaining. So much for the mythology and hero's journey that made the original trilogy so great.

Anyway, if you liked it cool. Enjoy. Adventure movies in particular are indeed made for popcorn entertainment. But if someone doesn't like it, don't point the finger at the viewer for having a bad experience. There are many more reasons than what I listed for a person to not like this movie.

Agree with most of this, especially the bolded part. I was literally thinking the same thing about Guardians of the Galaxy.

The slapstick jokes, the manic pace, the remarkable exotic fantasy locales, all of it reminded me of GotG. Except not nearly as good.

And it just didn't feel like Star Wars.

I wouldn't mind seeing an offshoot film in this style. It reminds me a bit of "Alien Resurrection" in that it is an OK movie that doesn't feel cohesive with the rest of its universe. As its own standalone film that would've been OK. But when you're handling Luke, Leia, a very earnest Rey, etc, this style just doesn't fit.

The movie gave me little reason to care about the characters, aside from Rey. The First Order are buffoons (though at least their evil is slightly explained hin this one). Snoke is basically a buffoon. Kylo Ren is pretty much a buffoon. Their machinations remind me of some Saturday morning cartoons (the writers seem almost aware of this, as though they are mocking Abrams' horrible writing from Force Awakens). And the Alliance is silly and comically underpowered, considering they should theoretically have a ton of support after dethroning Palpatine and Vader. So what is at stake here exactly?

And even if I did care about the characters, the action scenes were so manic and nonsensical that it was hard to con myself into believing there was ever any real danger. Compared to the original trilogy, or to an action masterpiece like "Mad Max Fury Road" this just seems cartoonish and flat.

I suppose there is some truth about the murkiness between good and evil, and there is truth about the pointlessness of endless war... and yet we are still expected to root unconditionally for the "good guys." And there has always been murkiness in the series anyways. Lando and Han are shady characters. Even Obi-Wan has his secrets.

I don't want to be too negative, as there was a lot to like in this movie, the fantasy elements were interesting and creative (especially Luke's island), the acting was better than Force Awakens, and the story made a lot more sense, probably due to JJ Abrams not writing this one, IMO he is the worst writer in Hollywood. But Rian Johnson still had to clean up some of the mess Abrams left behind, ie a poorly explained first order, a whiny emo villain, Luke's motivations for jumping ship etc. Overall IMO it just didn't work, especially as a sequel to the original trilogy.

Edit:

I do like that they took risks with this film. I like the feeling of upending expectations. But the results and overall tone didn't quite work.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Sketch5 on December 19, 2017, 08:50:52 PM
I hated Leia floating back to the ship after they got blown up, that was annoying. 

I loved the fact that Luke feet didnt make the marks in the salt in retrospect, good touch. 

Still struggling with why Rey is good with the force and  lightsaber despite little to no actual training.   Comparing Luke raising his Xwing from the swamp and rey with the boulders is a little weird.

With the Sith there are only two because they can pull more from the Force so to speak. There use to be Thousands, but then on of the Sith lords decided they would be stronger if there was only two Sith and a few force wielders. This could be the same for Rey. Were the Force is using her to reboot the light, and since she's one of the few who are trying to tap into it, it's all coming to her.

You can say, well why didn't that happen to Luke? Two reasons. He had a lot of self doubt where Rey is more willing to open herself up. Second, they hadn't written the thing about the Sith and there being two yet. LOL
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 19, 2017, 09:43:48 PM
Yoda stated Luke failed because he didn't believe it. It's not so different from Jesus' statement about being able to move mountains if you have the faith of a mustard seed.

Rey, by comparison has a tremendous amount of faith. She isn't messing around with the force. She's using it to save her friends.

She sorta flies the Falcoln similarly.  Also Luke lived in an era where the jedi have been wiped out and hardly knows of them.

Rey grows up in an era when the Jedi have defeated the empire.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Onslaught on December 31, 2017, 10:25:01 AM
I hate it. To me it’s the worst Star Wars movie ever and I despise the prequels too but would rather watch them because while they have bad acting, and dialog and special effects I can say that the overall story is interesting. I can’t say this at all about The Last Jedi.

 Half the movie is about the slowest space chase ever. Why not hyperdrive a few of those Star Destroyers in front of the resistance ships and circle them? Why       
 did they pull their tie fighters back? When has the Empire/First Order ever cared at all about tie fighter pilots? Just launch all of them at them at one time. Why              was the one Star Destroyer the only one shooting at the ships? And how is it that this massive gun on a Destroyer is not getting past their shields but only two shots from a Tie fighter blew a hole in the bridge? And why not hyperdrive the other 2 resistance ships off in different directions? They can’t track all of them at one time going in 2 different directions.

There was too much “humor” in it and what they had was bad. From Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder and making a face after milking a space walrus to Ray continuing to make the aliens on the island mad or BB-8 being a slot machine it all seemed out of place and forced. I was prequel or RotJ humor and not the stuff I want to see.

 If Luke wanted to die on that island alone then why did R2 have a half a map to find him in the last movie?

Leia playing  Mary Poppins in space. I need not say more on that.

Ray still hasn’t been trained in any way on how to be a Jedi. And yet she’s still all powerful somehow.

 The whole casino planet story was useless and added 30 minutes for no reason at all. I felt like I was being lectured by Disney the whole time about greed and animal abuse. All things I’m against but I don’t need to be force-feed it in my Star wars movies.

I lean to the left political and I think women should be equal to men and all that good stuff. But this movie just seemed like the men are all idiots who can’t get anything right and have to be put in their place by the superior women in charge. It has Disney princes all over it.

I said before I’ve got a problem with the jokes in the film. And the beginning of the movie when Poe is punk’n General Hux is another example. It make the First Order look weak and foolish. It makes them not intimidating like the Empire before them. Did you ever see Tarkin, Ozzel or Piett acting like that? No, they had intimidation on their side and not being the butt of gag jokes.

 How did the first order get all of it’s money? How did they make their fleet? And what had the new galactic senate been doing for the last 30 years? The Empire was defeated about a year after the battle over Endor and what was left retreated out into space. So in that time you’re telling me the new senate didn’t make an army to defend itself? All they have is a few ships and Leia to fight for them?
The Emperor played both sides in the clone wars to build up a massive army that he then took control over and turned the galaxy into his own personal military machine. How in the world did the First order pull off something like that again?  All it comes down to is lazy story telling where the good guys must be outnumbered and out of hope against a superior advisory. I’d rather they just had two equal forces go up against one another like an actual war.


 Force ghost can’t interact with the physical world. Yoda’s ghost shouldn’t be able to make lightning hit a tree or knock Luke in the head with his force walking stick. Obi-Wan told Luke in The Empire Strikes Back “if you choose to face Vader you will do it alone, I can not interfere.” If force ghosts can interact with the physical world then Ben could've blow up the first Death Star on his own. Or Ben and Yoda  could’ve just killed the Emperor and Vader themselves after turning to ghosts.

 Bombs don’t fall in space. When that one bomber was trying to drop it’s payload I keeps saying “please have them shoot out of the thing and not drop” but sure enough they fell out of the thing. But unlike a bomber flying over a planet the ones in space don’t have gravity on it’s side.

 How did Finn get Rose back to the base after she crashed their two land speeders? And both of those characters are extremely annoying by the way.

 Why didn’t Maz Kanata’s character just give them a name rather then tell them to look for a defining characteristic? And who was filming her run around in a gun fight during their iChat? And why didn’t the first order not intercept the transmission? And why was that pointless, digital looking character in the movie in the first place?

Why did the First order land it’s At-At’s and big gun so far away from the base? They didn’t have shields like Hoth’s base did so they couldn’t landed right up to the door and blown a hole in it. We didn’t need to see a bad recreation of the battle of Hoth in this movie with the slowest, most pointless speeders ever.

And the resistance would’ve had it’s base door closes after they landed. They wouldn’t hold off until the bad guy started flying in and then close the door. The crashing ship happened to have two idiots on the resistance in it but it could’ve also been full of enemy troopers.

Why in movies do they have to make any important technology look fancy? I’m sure the Hyperspace tracker would just look like a computer in a control room. There is no need for it to look like the Star Wars version of the flux capacitor.

Once again they made Captain Phasma a wussy. Why even have this idiotically named character in the movies at all?

Kylo Ren didn’t notice that Luke was fighting him with the same blue light saber that was just pulled apart by him and Rey not 15 minutes ago up in the throne room? Did he think he fixed it?

Directing problems like R2 playing the Leia recording to Luke in the Falcon. Well R2 turns his head to look at Luke but the video stays put in the same spot. If R2 turns his head the video would move with it. Finn’s bag magically being put down in one spot and then the next shot i being in another place. Or Luke becoming one with the force and his body disappearing and only leaving his cloths but not his robotic hand too. These are little things that if I notice with one viewing then how do the people working for years not see?
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 31, 2017, 10:41:44 AM
http://babylonbee.com/news/man-complains-plot-holes-movie-space-wizards-fighting-colored-laser-sticks/ (http://babylonbee.com/news/man-complains-plot-holes-movie-space-wizards-fighting-colored-laser-sticks/)
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Onslaught on December 31, 2017, 10:46:44 AM
You can make that argument about all kinds of movies. And the fact is some of the Star Wars movies didn't make these flaws so no reason to let this one get away with it. Bad movie making is bad movie making.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Eja117 on December 31, 2017, 10:50:21 AM
That's an interesting question....which film or franchise had the most plot holes?   If I had to guess I'd say Back to the Future. Not sure. I'm gonna try to look that up
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Csfan1984 on December 31, 2017, 11:01:36 AM
I thought it was okay. Not a great movie though. I think that trying to check so many boxes hurts the flow and direction of the movie franchise. Can't be an easy thing dealing with this franchise.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 31, 2017, 11:43:06 AM
I just wish that they would quit repeating the old movies.   When I saw the Force Awakens, I thought I have seen this movie before.   It is so much like new hope.   Now we see the Last Jedi and it is a lot like Empire Strikes with an ice planet and such.   There is a whole galaxy out there one would think that they could have a lot more different types of planets.

I get wanting to honor the old movies, but some originality would not hurt.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on December 31, 2017, 12:25:15 PM
I thought that they should have named it The Last Temptation of Luke Skywalker
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: manl_lui on December 31, 2017, 01:20:07 PM
I thought it was okay. Not a great movie though. I think that trying to check so many boxes hurts the flow and direction of the movie franchise. Can't be an easy thing dealing with this franchise.

same, the last two just didn't feel right for me, I thoroughly enjoyed Rogue one a lot better than Force Awakens and Last Jedi

Snoke was way too underwhelming, and i agree with some people that said Kylo was mis casted.

Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: wayupnorth on December 31, 2017, 01:21:55 PM
I thought it was okay. Not a great movie though. I think that trying to check so many boxes hurts the flow and direction of the movie franchise. Can't be an easy thing dealing with this franchise.

same, the last two just didn't feel right for me, I thoroughly enjoyed Rogue one a lot better than Force Awakens and Last Jedi

Snoke was way too underwhelming, and i agree with some people that said Kylo was mis casted.

I feel like Kylo might be my favorite character of this new series, and find the casting perfect!

Different strokes.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Csfan1984 on December 31, 2017, 02:10:06 PM
I thought it was okay. Not a great movie though. I think that trying to check so many boxes hurts the flow and direction of the movie franchise. Can't be an easy thing dealing with this franchise.

same, the last two just didn't feel right for me, I thoroughly enjoyed Rogue one a lot better than Force Awakens and Last Jedi

Snoke was way too underwhelming, and i agree with some people that said Kylo was mis casted.

I feel like Kylo might be my favorite character of this new series, and find the casting perfect!

Different strokes.
Didn't like Kylo much in first movie but this seemed much better to me. Maybe because he felt more assertive and manipulative like a real villain. Looking forward to him embracing the dark side even more.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Roy H. on December 31, 2017, 02:26:44 PM
I’ve seen it twice. I acknowledge the plot holes, but still really enjoy it.

It’s not what my vision would have been, but it entertained me. The only part that I really feel was a misstep was Leia’s non-death. I thought it was set up perfectly with Kylo not having the heart to kill her, only to have her die anyway. That could have been an interesting struggle to watch Kylo deal with. 

I’m a little surprised that they didn’t reshoot some of the movie after Carrie Fisher’s death. They were probably too far into post-production, but they could have sent her off fittingly.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 31, 2017, 02:55:54 PM
Quote
The only part that I really feel was a misstep was Leia’s non-death

Yeah, I thought this was sloppy.  They should have had her die, now she dies off screen or CGI.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: JHTruth on December 31, 2017, 02:58:45 PM
Too many annoying details. The cutesy bird creatures, the nurses. Hated the casino scenes, no point at all. Finn annoying beyond belief
 
That said, i am a member of the original trilogy generation and other than Empire, Star Wars movies have always been sort of stupid and cheesy. Because they were such a large part of people's childhoods they have become better movies than they were, if that makes any sense..
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on December 31, 2017, 04:28:02 PM
6 out of 10 tops...

the best part of this film was the preview for the new Avengers film.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: More Banners on December 31, 2017, 04:36:24 PM
Luke's cynicism just doesn't seem right in a Jedi master.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: CelticsElite on December 31, 2017, 06:32:03 PM
I hate it. To me it’s the worst Star Wars movie ever and I despise the prequels too but would rather watch them because while they have bad acting, and dialog and special effects I can say that the overall story is interesting. I can’t say this at all about The Last Jedi.

 Half the movie is about the slowest space chase ever. Why not hyperdrive a few of those Star Destroyers in front of the resistance ships and circle them? Why       
 did they pull their tie fighters back? When has the Empire/First Order ever cared at all about tie fighter pilots? Just launch all of them at them at one time. Why              was the one Star Destroyer the only one shooting at the ships? And how is it that this massive gun on a Destroyer is not getting past their shields but only two shots from a Tie fighter blew a hole in the bridge? And why not hyperdrive the other 2 resistance ships off in different directions? They can’t track all of them at one time going in 2 different directions.

There was too much “humor” in it and what they had was bad. From Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder and making a face after milking a space walrus to Ray continuing to make the aliens on the island mad or BB-8 being a slot machine it all seemed out of place and forced. I was prequel or RotJ humor and not the stuff I want to see.

 If Luke wanted to die on that island alone then why did R2 have a half a map to find him in the last movie?

Leia playing  Mary Poppins in space. I need not say more on that.

Ray still hasn’t been trained in any way on how to be a Jedi. And yet she’s still all powerful somehow.

 The whole casino planet story was useless and added 30 minutes for no reason at all. I felt like I was being lectured by Disney the whole time about greed and animal abuse. All things I’m against but I don’t need to be force-feed it in my Star wars movies.

I lean to the left political and I think women should be equal to men and all that good stuff. But this movie just seemed like the men are all idiots who can’t get anything right and have to be put in their place by the superior women in charge. It has Disney princes all over it.

I said before I’ve got a problem with the jokes in the film. And the beginning of the movie when Poe is punk’n General Hux is another example. It make the First Order look weak and foolish. It makes them not intimidating like the Empire before them. Did you ever see Tarkin, Ozzel or Piett acting like that? No, they had intimidation on their side and not being the butt of gag jokes.

 How did the first order get all of it’s money? How did they make their fleet? And what had the new galactic senate been doing for the last 30 years? The Empire was defeated about a year after the battle over Endor and what was left retreated out into space. So in that time you’re telling me the new senate didn’t make an army to defend itself? All they have is a few ships and Leia to fight for them?
The Emperor played both sides in the clone wars to build up a massive army that he then took control over and turned the galaxy into his own personal military machine. How in the world did the First order pull off something like that again?  All it comes down to is lazy story telling where the good guys must be outnumbered and out of hope against a superior advisory. I’d rather they just had two equal forces go up against one another like an actual war.


 Force ghost can’t interact with the physical world. Yoda’s ghost shouldn’t be able to make lightning hit a tree or knock Luke in the head with his force walking stick. Obi-Wan told Luke in The Empire Strikes Back “if you choose to face Vader you will do it alone, I can not interfere.” If force ghosts can interact with the physical world then Ben could've blow up the first Death Star on his own. Or Ben and Yoda  could’ve just killed the Emperor and Vader themselves after turning to ghosts.

 Bombs don’t fall in space. When that one bomber was trying to drop it’s payload I keeps saying “please have them shoot out of the thing and not drop” but sure enough they fell out of the thing. But unlike a bomber flying over a planet the ones in space don’t have gravity on it’s side.

 How did Finn get Rose back to the base after she crashed their two land speeders? And both of those characters are extremely annoying by the way.

 Why didn’t Maz Kanata’s character just give them a name rather then tell them to look for a defining characteristic? And who was filming her run around in a gun fight during their iChat? And why didn’t the first order not intercept the transmission? And why was that pointless, digital looking character in the movie in the first place?

Why did the First order land it’s At-At’s and big gun so far away from the base? They didn’t have shields like Hoth’s base did so they couldn’t landed right up to the door and blown a hole in it. We didn’t need to see a bad recreation of the battle of Hoth in this movie with the slowest, most pointless speeders ever.

And the resistance would’ve had it’s base door closes after they landed. They wouldn’t hold off until the bad guy started flying in and then close the door. The crashing ship happened to have two idiots on the resistance in it but it could’ve also been full of enemy troopers.

Why in movies do they have to make any important technology look fancy? I’m sure the Hyperspace tracker would just look like a computer in a control room. There is no need for it to look like the Star Wars version of the flux capacitor.

Once again they made Captain Phasma a wussy. Why even have this idiotically named character in the movies at all?

Kylo Ren didn’t notice that Luke was fighting him with the same blue light saber that was just pulled apart by him and Rey not 15 minutes ago up in the throne room? Did he think he fixed it?

Directing problems like R2 playing the Leia recording to Luke in the Falcon. Well R2 turns his head to look at Luke but the video stays put in the same spot. If R2 turns his head the video would move with it. Finn’s bag magically being put down in one spot and then the next shot i being in another place. Or Luke becoming one with the force and his body disappearing and only leaving his cloths but not his robotic hand too. These are little things that if I notice with one viewing then how do the people working for years not see?
your criticism is very valid. I liked the movie but all these things bothered me. Also how did Finn suddenly get healed back to normal and fighting form like nothing happened? He fights the most powerful stormtrooper the day he wakes up from his coma without a scratch. This is after piloting some ships. How did he learn to pilot during his coma? We learned in the first few minutes of the force awakens that Finn “needs a pilot” because he can’t fly anything.  You have to be kidding me
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: greg683x on December 31, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
I saw the movie yesterday and have mixed feelings.  I dont like it and I dont hate it.

I will say this.  Personally when it comes to these type of movies, Great villains make the movie for me.  I LOVE!!! a good bad guy.  Whether its Darth Vader, Magneto or Apocalypse in the XMen, T1000 in T2, Bane and the Joker in the Dark Knight movies, etc

I cannot say enough how much I dont like what they did with the villains in this movie.

I was worried about them making a Darth Vader ripoff in TFA, but they had me liking the Kylo Ren character and thats gone down to a luke warm feeling after this movie.

Supreme Leader Snoke was such a waste......hopefully thats not completely finished

and Captain Phasmas fight was terribly done and couldve been a good moment in the movie, instead it lasted two seconds.  I dont have a problem with Fin winning (though by my count he should have died 4 times now), but the fight was just short and sloppily written.   

there are a bunch of other things that I didnt care for that people have already mentioned and go without saying (like Lea in space, how had no one veto'd that scene all throughout the movie making process???)

there are a bunch of other things that folks are making a big deal over that I really think is just too much and in some cases trying to pile on.  But hey to each their own.

But for me personally, and on a simple level, as someone who enjoys a good sci-fi action/comic book hero film.  The handling of the villains really bothered me.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: dark_lord on January 04, 2018, 05:11:18 PM
loved it and thought it was better than force awakens. looking forward to seeing what happens next.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 04, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
Quote
loved it and thought it was better than force awakens

I thought it was better than the force awakens too.

Quote
Great villains make the movie for me.  I LOVE!!! a good bad guy.  Whether its Darth Vader, Magneto or Apocalypse in the XMen, T1000 in T2, Bane and the Joker in the Dark Knight movies, etc

Out of those movies, Darth Vader and Joker were good villains the rest are meh.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Redz on January 04, 2018, 06:38:10 PM
I hate it. To me it’s the worst Star Wars movie ever and I despise the prequels too but would rather watch them because while they have bad acting, and dialog and special effects I can say that the overall story is interesting. I can’t say this at all about The Last Jedi.

 Half the movie is about the slowest space chase ever. Why not hyperdrive a few of those Star Destroyers in front of the resistance ships and circle them? Why       
 did they pull their tie fighters back? When has the Empire/First Order ever cared at all about tie fighter pilots? Just launch all of them at them at one time. Why              was the one Star Destroyer the only one shooting at the ships? And how is it that this massive gun on a Destroyer is not getting past their shields but only two shots from a Tie fighter blew a hole in the bridge? And why not hyperdrive the other 2 resistance ships off in different directions? They can’t track all of them at one time going in 2 different directions.

There was too much “humor” in it and what they had was bad. From Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder and making a face after milking a space walrus to Ray continuing to make the aliens on the island mad or BB-8 being a slot machine it all seemed out of place and forced. I was prequel or RotJ humor and not the stuff I want to see.

 If Luke wanted to die on that island alone then why did R2 have a half a map to find him in the last movie?

Leia playing  Mary Poppins in space. I need not say more on that.

Ray still hasn’t been trained in any way on how to be a Jedi. And yet she’s still all powerful somehow.

 The whole casino planet story was useless and added 30 minutes for no reason at all. I felt like I was being lectured by Disney the whole time about greed and animal abuse. All things I’m against but I don’t need to be force-feed it in my Star wars movies.

I lean to the left political and I think women should be equal to men and all that good stuff. But this movie just seemed like the men are all idiots who can’t get anything right and have to be put in their place by the superior women in charge. It has Disney princes all over it.

I said before I’ve got a problem with the jokes in the film. And the beginning of the movie when Poe is punk’n General Hux is another example. It make the First Order look weak and foolish. It makes them not intimidating like the Empire before them. Did you ever see Tarkin, Ozzel or Piett acting like that? No, they had intimidation on their side and not being the butt of gag jokes.

 How did the first order get all of it’s money? How did they make their fleet? And what had the new galactic senate been doing for the last 30 years? The Empire was defeated about a year after the battle over Endor and what was left retreated out into space. So in that time you’re telling me the new senate didn’t make an army to defend itself? All they have is a few ships and Leia to fight for them?
The Emperor played both sides in the clone wars to build up a massive army that he then took control over and turned the galaxy into his own personal military machine. How in the world did the First order pull off something like that again?  All it comes down to is lazy story telling where the good guys must be outnumbered and out of hope against a superior advisory. I’d rather they just had two equal forces go up against one another like an actual war.


 Force ghost can’t interact with the physical world. Yoda’s ghost shouldn’t be able to make lightning hit a tree or knock Luke in the head with his force walking stick. Obi-Wan told Luke in The Empire Strikes Back “if you choose to face Vader you will do it alone, I can not interfere.” If force ghosts can interact with the physical world then Ben could've blow up the first Death Star on his own. Or Ben and Yoda  could’ve just killed the Emperor and Vader themselves after turning to ghosts.

 Bombs don’t fall in space. When that one bomber was trying to drop it’s payload I keeps saying “please have them shoot out of the thing and not drop” but sure enough they fell out of the thing. But unlike a bomber flying over a planet the ones in space don’t have gravity on it’s side.

 How did Finn get Rose back to the base after she crashed their two land speeders? And both of those characters are extremely annoying by the way.

 Why didn’t Maz Kanata’s character just give them a name rather then tell them to look for a defining characteristic? And who was filming her run around in a gun fight during their iChat? And why didn’t the first order not intercept the transmission? And why was that pointless, digital looking character in the movie in the first place?

Why did the First order land it’s At-At’s and big gun so far away from the base? They didn’t have shields like Hoth’s base did so they couldn’t landed right up to the door and blown a hole in it. We didn’t need to see a bad recreation of the battle of Hoth in this movie with the slowest, most pointless speeders ever.

And the resistance would’ve had it’s base door closes after they landed. They wouldn’t hold off until the bad guy started flying in and then close the door. The crashing ship happened to have two idiots on the resistance in it but it could’ve also been full of enemy troopers.

Why in movies do they have to make any important technology look fancy? I’m sure the Hyperspace tracker would just look like a computer in a control room. There is no need for it to look like the Star Wars version of the flux capacitor.

Once again they made Captain Phasma a wussy. Why even have this idiotically named character in the movies at all?

Kylo Ren didn’t notice that Luke was fighting him with the same blue light saber that was just pulled apart by him and Rey not 15 minutes ago up in the throne room? Did he think he fixed it?

Directing problems like R2 playing the Leia recording to Luke in the Falcon. Well R2 turns his head to look at Luke but the video stays put in the same spot. If R2 turns his head the video would move with it. Finn’s bag magically being put down in one spot and then the next shot i being in another place. Or Luke becoming one with the force and his body disappearing and only leaving his cloths but not his robotic hand too. These are little things that if I notice with one viewing then how do the people working for years not see?
your criticism is very valid. I liked the movie but all these things bothered me. Also how did Finn suddenly get healed back to normal and fighting form like nothing happened? He fights the most powerful stormtrooper the day he wakes up from his coma without a scratch. This is after piloting some ships. How did he learn to pilot during his coma? We learned in the first few minutes of the force awakens that Finn “needs a pilot” because he can’t fly anything.  You have to be kidding me

Ignorance is bliss I guess.  I enjoyed it.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 04, 2018, 10:59:17 PM
(http://media.comicbook.com/2017/10/star-wars-the-last-jedi-new-photo-luke-skywalker-journal-of-the--1040411-1280x0.jpg)

I'm not sure if Mark Hamill really has a big head, or if the way he dressed in this movie just creates that optical effect ...

And I'm totally not mocking anyone who has a big head ...

But it seemed to me, throughout the movie, that Luke's head is disproportionately large, and that kinda distracted me. Anyone else have that issue?

I'll offer a more in-depth review of TLJ later (I'm sure you're all waiting with bated breath!).
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on January 05, 2018, 12:11:57 AM
He should have quit while he was still a head
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 07, 2018, 02:42:26 PM
It's a little late but I've seen this twice now - second time gave me a lot of perspective on the first

Thoughts:

- Enjoyed the movie overall. Had little problem with a lot of the thematic elements, but the execution often felt sloppy or rushed.

- One example of this - unlike a lot of people, I really liked how Luke went out. Drawing the enemy's aggression to yourself to save the ones you love without using any violence yourself is very on point for the ideals of the Jedi.  But there wasn't enough to show his shift from disgruntled Hobbit to hero, and having to hide that he wasn't actually there didn't let them build up to his death/dissolution well enough.

- The Finn/Rose storyline seems even more pointless the second time around, though Del Toro was great in his role. But take them out and the plot barely changes. A big theme of the movie was gaining from failure but it really just felt like they didn't have anything good for Finn to do.

- A great bit of foreshadowing that's easy to miss - when Leia does her Superman thing (silly but whatever), there's a tipped over hologram of Snoke's ship on the bridge. She cuts through it in the exact spot that the cruiser eventually does.

- They shouldn't have done Ackbar like that. He at least could've piloted the kamikaze run!

- I really don't care much for Rey's character - her entire personality seems to be A. being awesome at everything right away with basically no doubts or struggles, and B. wanting to know who her parents were, which is resolved by basically saying "they weren't famous so it's like they didn't exist". Hope there's more to that plot thread in the next one, the Dark Side cave seemed like it was hinting at something more meaningful.

- Kylo Ren was a much better character this time around. Genuinely no real idea how his story plays out, but really enjoyed Driver's performance.

- Just like Force Awakens they seem to be trying to take a lot of the same plot beats from the original trilogy and take a different spin on them. They do a better job here but it still feels derivative and flat at some points. Like how Snoke is basically exactly the Emperor but with his story sped up by one movie.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on January 07, 2018, 03:48:08 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Csfan1984 on January 07, 2018, 04:26:46 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: hpantazo on January 07, 2018, 04:30:30 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Csfan1984 on January 07, 2018, 04:47:21 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Sketch5 on January 07, 2018, 06:00:45 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.

I think there is more to Snoke than let on. Theres that symbol on the floor of the temple, it's of the prime Jedi, split in half, one side light, one side dark wearing a gold cloack. And if you notice Snokes head is split down the middle.

There are stories of Force users that use Mindtricks, he could have done this if he is the Prime Jedi.  For one reason why would he say Rey was Rens true enemy. It would be more likely Luke over Rey. He wants Rey to join him. Even if Ren was thinking it to trick Snoke, Snoke would have figured that out. Also why did Snokes guards attack Ren and Rey if he's dead. Who are they fighting for? I think Snoke wants Rens power for himself but needed him to make the choice of darkside to do it, and nothing screams dark side then an apprentice killing the master.

I could see Snoke draining Ren of Darkside force, leaving a weakend Ben Solo.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: gouki88 on January 07, 2018, 06:36:01 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.

I think there is more to Snoke than let on. Theres that symbol on the floor of the temple, it's of the prime Jedi, split in half, one side light, one side dark wearing a gold cloack. And if you notice Snokes head is split down the middle.

There are stories of Force users that use Mindtricks, he could have done this if he is the Prime Jedi.  For one reason why would he say Rey was Rens true enemy. It would be more likely Luke over Rey. He wants Rey to join him. Even if Ren was thinking it to trick Snoke, Snoke would have figured that out. Also why did Snokes guards attack Ren and Rey if he's dead. Who are they fighting for? I think Snoke wants Rens power for himself but needed him to make the choice of darkside to do it, and nothing screams dark side then an apprentice killing the master.

I could see Snoke draining Ren of Darkside force, leaving a weakend Ben Solo.
I have been going over similar theories for Snoke, and some of them are certainly plausible. However, I have literally no faith in Disney to do anything remotely right
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: chilidawg on January 07, 2018, 06:51:31 PM
Just saw, my wife and I both loved it.  Sorry no in depth review.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: kraidstar on January 07, 2018, 07:19:02 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.

I think there is more to Snoke than let on. Theres that symbol on the floor of the temple, it's of the prime Jedi, split in half, one side light, one side dark wearing a gold cloack. And if you notice Snokes head is split down the middle.

There are stories of Force users that use Mindtricks, he could have done this if he is the Prime Jedi.  For one reason why would he say Rey was Rens true enemy. It would be more likely Luke over Rey. He wants Rey to join him. Even if Ren was thinking it to trick Snoke, Snoke would have figured that out. Also why did Snokes guards attack Ren and Rey if he's dead. Who are they fighting for? I think Snoke wants Rens power for himself but needed him to make the choice of darkside to do it, and nothing screams dark side then an apprentice killing the master.

I could see Snoke draining Ren of Darkside force, leaving a weakend Ben Solo.
I have been going over similar theories for Snoke, and some of them are certainly plausible. However, I have literally no faith in Disney to do anything remotely right

If you guys honestly think JJ Abrams and Co are going to unveil some secret brilliant narrative then i have a bridge to sell you.

They have zero idea of what they are doing, and are banking on nostalgia, confusion, and huge advertising money to keep people distracted from this fact until they can milk enough money from this cash cow to recoup their losses.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: gouki88 on January 07, 2018, 07:25:11 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.

I think there is more to Snoke than let on. Theres that symbol on the floor of the temple, it's of the prime Jedi, split in half, one side light, one side dark wearing a gold cloack. And if you notice Snokes head is split down the middle.

There are stories of Force users that use Mindtricks, he could have done this if he is the Prime Jedi.  For one reason why would he say Rey was Rens true enemy. It would be more likely Luke over Rey. He wants Rey to join him. Even if Ren was thinking it to trick Snoke, Snoke would have figured that out. Also why did Snokes guards attack Ren and Rey if he's dead. Who are they fighting for? I think Snoke wants Rens power for himself but needed him to make the choice of darkside to do it, and nothing screams dark side then an apprentice killing the master.

I could see Snoke draining Ren of Darkside force, leaving a weakend Ben Solo.
I have been going over similar theories for Snoke, and some of them are certainly plausible. However, I have literally no faith in Disney to do anything remotely right

If you guys honestly think JJ Abrams and Co are going to unveil some secret brilliant narrative then i have a bridge to sell you.

They have zero idea of what they are doing, and are banking on nostalgia, confusion, and huge advertising money to keep people distracted from this fact until they can milk enough money from this cash cow to recoup their losses.
100% agree. As soon as they decided that all the other Star Wars stories weren't canon I knew it was all going incredibly downhill incredibly quickly. Such a shame
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Csfan1984 on January 07, 2018, 08:02:36 PM
Kind of feel the same way we are reaching for underlying explanations and expanded story lines. Disney just wants summer blockbuster type movies for December. It's to sell merchandise to under 13 kids they won't get complicated
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 07, 2018, 09:14:39 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.

I think there is more to Snoke than let on. Theres that symbol on the floor of the temple, it's of the prime Jedi, split in half, one side light, one side dark wearing a gold cloack. And if you notice Snokes head is split down the middle.

There are stories of Force users that use Mindtricks, he could have done this if he is the Prime Jedi.  For one reason why would he say Rey was Rens true enemy. It would be more likely Luke over Rey. He wants Rey to join him. Even if Ren was thinking it to trick Snoke, Snoke would have figured that out. Also why did Snokes guards attack Ren and Rey if he's dead. Who are they fighting for? I think Snoke wants Rens power for himself but needed him to make the choice of darkside to do it, and nothing screams dark side then an apprentice killing the master.

I could see Snoke draining Ren of Darkside force, leaving a weakend Ben Solo.
I have been going over similar theories for Snoke, and some of them are certainly plausible. However, I have literally no faith in Disney to do anything remotely right

Snoke plays exactly the same role the Emperor did in the original trilogy - shadowy mastermind with basically 0 backstory shows up first as a giant hologram then in person in his throne room to test the main hero and villain while the good guy fleet is getting ambushed and picked off.

Maybe that's to mirror the Emperor's role, maybe it's to add some major twist in the next one, but it's definitely not by accident.


100% agree. As soon as they decided that all the other Star Wars stories weren't canon I knew it was all going incredibly downhill incredibly quickly. Such a shame

As someone who was familiar with most of the other Star Wars stories, ell oh ell. They started off ok and quickly devolved to absurd crap like telepathic bug orgies and this guy:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/c8/Lord_Nyax.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090521184317)

Lightsaber knees!
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: gouki88 on January 07, 2018, 10:26:14 PM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.

I think there is more to Snoke than let on. Theres that symbol on the floor of the temple, it's of the prime Jedi, split in half, one side light, one side dark wearing a gold cloack. And if you notice Snokes head is split down the middle.

There are stories of Force users that use Mindtricks, he could have done this if he is the Prime Jedi.  For one reason why would he say Rey was Rens true enemy. It would be more likely Luke over Rey. He wants Rey to join him. Even if Ren was thinking it to trick Snoke, Snoke would have figured that out. Also why did Snokes guards attack Ren and Rey if he's dead. Who are they fighting for? I think Snoke wants Rens power for himself but needed him to make the choice of darkside to do it, and nothing screams dark side then an apprentice killing the master.

I could see Snoke draining Ren of Darkside force, leaving a weakend Ben Solo.
I have been going over similar theories for Snoke, and some of them are certainly plausible. However, I have literally no faith in Disney to do anything remotely right

Snoke plays exactly the same role the Emperor did in the original trilogy - shadowy mastermind with basically 0 backstory shows up first as a giant hologram then in person in his throne room to test the main hero and villain while the good guy fleet is getting ambushed and picked off.

Maybe that's to mirror the Emperor's role, maybe it's to add some major twist in the next one, but it's definitely not by accident.


100% agree. As soon as they decided that all the other Star Wars stories weren't canon I knew it was all going incredibly downhill incredibly quickly. Such a shame

As someone who was familiar with most of the other Star Wars stories, ell oh ell. They started off ok and quickly devolved to absurd crap like telepathic bug orgies and this guy:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/c8/Lord_Nyax.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090521184317)

Lightsaber knees!
At least the execution of the emperor as an evil genius wasn't comically bad. The whole "I know every move you make before you make it" scene while the light saber was rattling around next to him was just laughable and cringeworthy.

And yeah, by no means am I saying they were all good. There are like 200+ stories, of course there were going to be absurd stories lol. But some of them were awesome.

Stories like KOTOR and KOTOR2 (yeah yeah, video games, but still) are some of the best Star Wars stories out there, and they were just sort of tossed to the "Legends" pile with little regard (although Rebels has muddled it a bit).

I just have no faith in Disney whatsoever
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 08, 2018, 12:12:23 AM
One quick thought following up on Snoke. Early in the movie he somehow manages to use the force on general Hux even though Snoke is not really there, he is just viewed via projection. That suggests he can project himself anywhere and still use the force on people as if he were really there. Thus, he could have never actually been in the throne room, it could have been a projection of Snoke, who allowed Kylo Ren to think he killed him, but he is not dead, he was never there to begin with. This would be totally in line with Snoke's character as a very clever master who excels in manipulation.
I would think combining powers at that level probably isn't likely but seeing what happened with the dice, does that say yes you can project and manipulate objects?
One problem I would have is if it drained Luke to project and interact a little to the point he died how does Snoke survive when he was projecting, flinging stuff around and mind reading people. I'd think if he wasn't there he'd be dead anyways. Or at best he would be a sith Ghost.

Or he's older and more powerful than Luke ever was?  The dice are certainly a great clue, and were hinted at strongly at the end of the film. The images of Snoke's 'corpse' were just weird, something was off. Nothing would be more badass and manipulative than totally screwing with Kylo's mind by making him think he killed Snoke, and nothing would be a better way to test Kylo's true nature than that.
Maybe they will try to save Snoke that way but I doubt it. I feel they just wanted to Snoke to die by Kylo using Snoke's own mind trick against him. The trick being Snoke manipulated and tricked Rey and Kylo with false visions, Kylo manipulated Snoke with a false vision to kill him.

I think there is more to Snoke than let on. Theres that symbol on the floor of the temple, it's of the prime Jedi, split in half, one side light, one side dark wearing a gold cloack. And if you notice Snokes head is split down the middle.

There are stories of Force users that use Mindtricks, he could have done this if he is the Prime Jedi.  For one reason why would he say Rey was Rens true enemy. It would be more likely Luke over Rey. He wants Rey to join him. Even if Ren was thinking it to trick Snoke, Snoke would have figured that out. Also why did Snokes guards attack Ren and Rey if he's dead. Who are they fighting for? I think Snoke wants Rens power for himself but needed him to make the choice of darkside to do it, and nothing screams dark side then an apprentice killing the master.

I could see Snoke draining Ren of Darkside force, leaving a weakend Ben Solo.
I have been going over similar theories for Snoke, and some of them are certainly plausible. However, I have literally no faith in Disney to do anything remotely right

Snoke plays exactly the same role the Emperor did in the original trilogy - shadowy mastermind with basically 0 backstory shows up first as a giant hologram then in person in his throne room to test the main hero and villain while the good guy fleet is getting ambushed and picked off.

Maybe that's to mirror the Emperor's role, maybe it's to add some major twist in the next one, but it's definitely not by accident.


100% agree. As soon as they decided that all the other Star Wars stories weren't canon I knew it was all going incredibly downhill incredibly quickly. Such a shame

As someone who was familiar with most of the other Star Wars stories, ell oh ell. They started off ok and quickly devolved to absurd crap like telepathic bug orgies and this guy:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/c8/Lord_Nyax.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090521184317)

Lightsaber knees!
At least the execution of the emperor as an evil genius wasn't comically bad. The whole "I know every move you make before you make it" scene while the light saber was rattling around next to him was just laughable and cringeworthy.

Oh I definitely agree, they're playing off a lot of the same story beats but they rarely develop them as well. Plus we've seen it before. That throneroom scene almost felt like a satire of the Return of the Jedi scene by the end.


And yeah, by no means am I saying they were all good. There are like 200+ stories, of course there were going to be absurd stories lol. But some of them were awesome.

Stories like KOTOR and KOTOR2 (yeah yeah, video games, but still) are some of the best Star Wars stories out there, and they were just sort of tossed to the "Legends" pile with little regard (although Rebels has muddled it a bit).

I just have no faith in Disney whatsoever

Sure, some of the stories were fun, but the stories are still out there, nothing's changed about them.

What I mean is nobody's going to fence themselves in with hundreds of stories of varying quality, mostly unknown outside of hardcore fans, that are mostly about what happens after the original movies. And there's no point in them negotiating through a "Ok Laserknees is out but Prince Xixor is in, except the rape pheromones, they're definitely out" conversation. They're going to leave themselves as much leeway as possible to make new stuff, so "(almost) nothing but the movies counts" is the only logical way to go.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Csfan1984 on January 10, 2018, 05:43:23 PM
Maybe Disney should have started with "Luke's Jedi Academy" as films for kids and made it more of a even lighter Harry Potter set in Star Wars universe trilogy. Maybe that would show how teaching kids is what made Luke lose his marbles and all hope lol

But seriously if Disney planned to roll out a universe of films they easily could have made movies for serperate audiences and saved themselves a lot of criticism.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 10, 2018, 06:23:11 PM
I like how many Star Wars Fans who have never wrote anything in their life think they could write better than the Disney Guys who have a history of blockbusters.   To those who think they can I would say there is a 99.9% chance that you can't......
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: CelticsElite on January 10, 2018, 06:29:01 PM
I like how many Star Wars Fans who have never wrote anything in their life think they could write better than the Disney Guys who have a history of blockbusters.   To those who think they can I would say there is a 99.9% chance that you can't......
a blockbuster (good selling movie) does not equate to a well written movie. On the contrary, the most popular movies seem to be poorly to decent  at best written movies  these days

Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: Csfan1984 on January 10, 2018, 07:01:06 PM
I like how many Star Wars Fans who have never wrote anything in their life think they could write better than the Disney Guys who have a history of blockbusters.   To those who think they can I would say there is a 99.9% chance that you can't......
I think it's not that they could write better than the authors. I say it's more like if they could write anything with Disney breathing down their necks. Disney expects to earn more from merchandise than ticket sales. That puts a story and the direction of any movie under a lot of creative restrictions and enforced mandates.

While Lucas lost his direction ability he still understood the big story and had sci-fi love. I was glad when Disney took over, hoping for more lighter adventure like the original movie. But Disney weren't creative enough in the first film and then went way off track on the plot and characters' development in the second film. While I understood what each film was trying to do the execution got worse. No movie is perfect but they can do better.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: More Banners on January 10, 2018, 08:20:33 PM
Kind of feel the same way we are reaching for underlying explanations and expanded story lines. Disney just wants summer blockbuster type movies for December. It's to sell merchandise to under 13 kids they won't get complicated

Yup. We can probably set our watches to a new Star Wars flick, complete with new characters and ships to merchandise just in time for Christmas most years.
Title: Re: "The Last Jedi" (Not Spoiler-Free)
Post by: KGs Knee on March 18, 2018, 04:58:16 PM
So, I just watched this movie the other day, and I actually liked it pretty well, overall.  I found it rather entertaining, and actually didn't mind at all how they portrayed Luke in this movie.  I loved how Luke went from disillusioned, failed master to once again at peace with the force by the end.  The re-introduction of Yoda was a great way to bring Luke back.  And the way Luke went out, with what was probably the strongest use of the force yet, in a very selfless manner, was brilliant.

There were obviously some things I did have major issues with, though.

I really don't like how Rey has a seemingly very strong command of the force with still almost no training at all.  But even worse is how the movie seems to vacillate between her being weak with the force one moment, and then super strong with it the next. On one hand, Snoke easily manipulates Rey and Kylo Ren, and when she faces Snoke he easily overpowers her.  Yet, in the same scene Kylo Ren somehow outwits Snoke, kills him, and then can't beat Rey.  That just logically makes zero sense.  It's not really a big stretch that Snoke and Kylo Ren can takes turns outwitting the other, as Kylo Ren has a lot of experience with the force at this point.  But Rey has no business being able to match Kylo Ren.

I'm fine with Kylo Ren killing Snoke in general, though, and I think it makes a good future plot point, as now Kylo Ren will need to find himself a Sith apprentice.  Obviously he wanted it to be Rey, which makes sense, but those scenes were poorly written overall.

But even worse than this was how the movie handled Leia.  I really hated that whole scene where she gets blown into space, and then for the first time in the entire series shows a level of use of the force that is completely inconsistent with her character.  It would have made more sense to either let her die right then, or just not have that happen at all.  I mean, I get why it probably was best for her to make it through until the final scenes where she interacts with Luke's projection, but having her use the force like that to save herself was just bad writing.

Also, I think it was probably a mistake to not kill her character off at some point in the movie, though.  Now the writers have a serious problem of how to handle Leia's character in the next movie.  I don't have a lot of faith they're going to be able to resolve this very well.

Lastly, I didn't like how Yoda was able to cause a bolt of lightning to strike the tree or somehow strike Luke with his cane.  Force ghosts aren't supposed to be able to actually physically interact with the living world.  This was just really careless writing, and rather unnecessary.  There had to be a better way to convey the same message Yoda was trying to teach Luke, without breaking from established theory on how the force works.

Like I said, overall I liked this movie a good bit, but feel it could have been a great movie if the writers had just used a little more logic in handling certain aspects.