Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary

[Phantom255x]

[Vermont Green]

Boston has max contracts right now given to Horford and Hayward with Kyrie due for his after next season, around the time that Horford will roll off (depending on how options go).  Horford was signed as a bridge player.  A bridge between a decent team that was trying to stay relevant while some really good draft picks were cashed in and developed.  He has actually been better than I expected especially this season/playoffs.  Certainly not what I consider mediocre.  Mediocre for a max contract, maybe but not mediocre relative to the whole league.

Horford is the 11th highest paid player (Hayward is 4th).  What are you going to do?  It could be worse, we could have Milsap (3rd) and Conley (8th).  Horford does seem overpaid relative to his production but by what, 10%?  Would it be OK if he made $25M instead of $27.7M?

For what he has given us, I think this will go down as a decent signing.  Certainly not a steal or anything but also not a disaster.  We are better off for the signing than if we had not signed him, or so it seems to me.  It is to be seen with Hayward but I am sure there will be plenty of opinions on him as well.  He will be much like Horford I suspect.  Very good but not great.  A marginal max player (mediocre?) but contributing.

[celticsclay]

Boston has max contracts right now given to Horford and Hayward with Kyrie due for his after next season, around the time that Horford will roll off (depending on how options go).  Horford was signed as a bridge player.  A bridge between a decent team that was trying to stay relevant while some really good draft picks were cashed in and developed.  He has actually been better than I expected especially this season/playoffs.  Certainly not what I consider mediocre.  Mediocre for a max contract, maybe but not mediocre relative to the whole league.

Horford is the 11th highest paid player (Hayward is 4th).  What are you going to do?  It could be worse, we could have Milsap (3rd) and Conley (8th).  Horford does seem overpaid relative to his production but by what, 10%?  Would it be OK if he made $25M instead of $27.7M?

For what he has given us, I think this will go down as a decent signing.  Certainly not a steal or anything but also not a disaster.  We are better off for the signing than if we had not signed him, or so it seems to me.  It is to be seen with Hayward but I am sure there will be plenty of opinions on him as well.  He will be much like Horford I suspect.  Very good but not great.  A marginal max player (mediocre?) but contributing.

He is a great signing because Hayward does not sign here if he is not here. Irving does not accept a trade to us if him and hayward are not here. How do people not understand this?

[GreenEnvy]

Boston has max contracts right now given to Horford and Hayward with Kyrie due for his after next season, around the time that Horford will roll off (depending on how options go).  Horford was signed as a bridge player.  A bridge between a decent team that was trying to stay relevant while some really good draft picks were cashed in and developed.  He has actually been better than I expected especially this season/playoffs.  Certainly not what I consider mediocre.  Mediocre for a max contract, maybe but not mediocre relative to the whole league.

Horford is the 11th highest paid player (Hayward is 4th).  What are you going to do?  It could be worse, we could have Milsap (3rd) and Conley (8th).  Horford does seem overpaid relative to his production but by what, 10%?  Would it be OK if he made $25M instead of $27.7M?

For what he has given us, I think this will go down as a decent signing.  Certainly not a steal or anything but also not a disaster.  We are better off for the signing than if we had not signed him, or so it seems to me.  It is to be seen with Hayward but I am sure there will be plenty of opinions on him as well.  He will be much like Horford I suspect.  Very good but not great.  A marginal max player (mediocre?) but contributing.

I don’t believe Horford was a bridge player at all. He was the first domino in luring Kevin Durant here.

We all know how that turned out, but he wasn’t a plan B, he was part of the A. If we brought in KD, that’s a very formidable group last season and maybe challenges for the title of IT doesn’t break down in the playoffs.

It’s more than a decent signing, it was a great one. It was our first major free agent. In year 1, we reach the ECF. People credit Brad for making Isaiah an MVP candidate, but what about Al? We now look like a perennial contender with the pieces added AFTER Horford. Do you think Hayward comes without Horford? Or Kyrie lists the Celtics as a choice? He’s an integral part in what we are doing and doesn’t need the stats or the glory to do his job. And that’s whatever we need from him on a given night.

[celticsclay]

Boston has max contracts right now given to Horford and Hayward with Kyrie due for his after next season, around the time that Horford will roll off (depending on how options go).  Horford was signed as a bridge player.  A bridge between a decent team that was trying to stay relevant while some really good draft picks were cashed in and developed.  He has actually been better than I expected especially this season/playoffs.  Certainly not what I consider mediocre.  Mediocre for a max contract, maybe but not mediocre relative to the whole league.

Horford is the 11th highest paid player (Hayward is 4th).  What are you going to do?  It could be worse, we could have Milsap (3rd) and Conley (8th).  Horford does seem overpaid relative to his production but by what, 10%?  Would it be OK if he made $25M instead of $27.7M?

For what he has given us, I think this will go down as a decent signing.  Certainly not a steal or anything but also not a disaster.  We are better off for the signing than if we had not signed him, or so it seems to me.  It is to be seen with Hayward but I am sure there will be plenty of opinions on him as well.  He will be much like Horford I suspect.  Very good but not great.  A marginal max player (mediocre?) but contributing.

I don’t believe Horford was a bridge player at all. He was the first domino in luring Kevin Durant here.

We all know how that turned out, but he wasn’t a plan B, he was part of the A. If we brought in KD, that’s a very formidable group last season and maybe challenges for the title of IT doesn’t break down in the playoffs.

It’s more than a decent signing, it was a great one. It was our first major free agent. In year 1, we reach the ECF. People credit Brad for making Isaiah an MVP candidate, but what about Al? We now look like a perennial contender with the pieces added AFTER Horford. Do you think Hayward comes without Horford? Or Kyrie lists the Celtics as a choice? He’s an integral part in what we are doing and doesn’t need the stats or the glory to do his job. And that’s whatever we need from him on a given night.

We wrote the same thing moments apart. TP

[Vermont Green]

It’s more than a decent signing, it was a great one.

How do people not understand this?

So the theory is that it is a great signing because it allowed us to sign Hayward (at least in large part) and also why Kyrie accepted the trade here.  Is this what we all don't understand?  Of course this all speculation and we don't even know if Hayward will turn out to be a good signing.

Kevin Durant would have been a great signing.  I can't think of any others I would classify as great.  I don't consider Hayward a great signing.  I categorize him as decent, certainly best available.  I guess it is all semantics.

The potential downside of any max signing for other than truly elite players if the future opportunity cost due to the money that you have tied up.  So far, we have not had any missed opportunity due to Horford's cap space but now with Hayward on the books too, things are starting to get tight.  We may lose Rozier or Smart for example, or miss out on a FA that becomes available because we have no cap space.  This is why I say decent, not great and why I think many have reservations about the money we have tied up in Horford (and Hayward).

[RockinRyA]

Boston has max contracts right now given to Horford and Hayward with Kyrie due for his after next season, around the time that Horford will roll off (depending on how options go).  Horford was signed as a bridge player.  A bridge between a decent team that was trying to stay relevant while some really good draft picks were cashed in and developed.  He has actually been better than I expected especially this season/playoffs.  Certainly not what I consider mediocre.  Mediocre for a max contract, maybe but not mediocre relative to the whole league.

Horford is the 11th highest paid player (Hayward is 4th).  What are you going to do?  It could be worse, we could have Milsap (3rd) and Conley (8th).  Horford does seem overpaid relative to his production but by what, 10%?  Would it be OK if he made $25M instead of $27.7M?

For what he has given us, I think this will go down as a decent signing.  Certainly not a steal or anything but also not a disaster.  We are better off for the signing than if we had not signed him, or so it seems to me.  It is to be seen with Hayward but I am sure there will be plenty of opinions on him as well.  He will be much like Horford I suspect.  Very good but not great.  A marginal max player (mediocre?) but contributing.

He is a great signing because Hayward does not sign here if he is not here. Irving does not accept a trade to us if him and hayward are not here. How do people not understand this?

People do not understand this because all they care about are numbers. Its like they don't even watch basketball. There are lots of things going on in the court that cannot be seen easily by raw numbers. Horford is HUGE for the development of the players. He is a guy who does not care about getting his, thus enabling our younger guys to have more opportunities. He also is a great lockerroom guy, someone other guys respect and look up to. There is a huge difference when you have a good functioning lockeroom versus one that is in disarray, anyone who has played team sport should know this!

[Moranis]

It’s more than a decent signing, it was a great one.

How do people not understand this?

So the theory is that it is a great signing because it allowed us to sign Hayward (at least in large part) and also why Kyrie accepted the trade here.  Is this what we all don't understand?  Of course this all speculation and we don't even know if Hayward will turn out to be a good signing.

Kevin Durant would have been a great signing.  I can't think of any others I would classify as great.  I don't consider Hayward a great signing.  I categorize him as decent, certainly best available.  I guess it is all semantics.

The potential downside of any max signing for other than truly elite players if the future opportunity cost due to the money that you have tied up.  So far, we have not had any missed opportunity due to Horford's cap space but now with Hayward on the books too, things are starting to get tight.  We may lose Rozier or Smart for example, or miss out on a FA that becomes available because we have no cap space.  This is why I say decent, not great and why I think many have reservations about the money we have tied up in Horford (and Hayward).

except no one really knows what the lost opportunity cost is.  Maybe if Horford isn't on the books, Ainge pulls the trigger on a trade or uses the cap space differently last summer.  I mean with space for 2 max contracts last summer, maybe Ainge pulls the trigger on the Crowder, Smart, and the 2018 1st for George trade (and since there is cap room no one else has to go out).  Then he still has the room to sign Hayward and then Ainge uses Bradley, Thomas, and the BKN 1st to acquire Irving (Zizic is no longer needed for salary so maybe he is kept or maybe not) and then still adds players like Baynes in free agency.  Maybe Olynyk is able to be kept in that scenario since he wouldn't have to be traded to make room for Hayward anymore.  So Boston rolls out a unit of Irving, Brown, Hayward, George, and Baynes with Rozier, Tatum, Olynyk, Theis, Yabu, etc. on the bench.  Hayward likely doesn't get hurt and maybe with Hayward and George bearing more of the load, Irving's knee surgery can hold off till the off season.  How much different is this playoff seasons with that team rolling out on the floor?

Again who knows what happens, but this idea that Horford was and is the absolutely best way to spend the money isn't a given.  It might very well have been, or it might not have been.

I believe Hayward signed in Boston whether Horford was on the team or not.  Him coming here was about Stevens. 

[Vermont Green]

It’s more than a decent signing, it was a great one.

How do people not understand this?

So the theory is that it is a great signing because it allowed us to sign Hayward (at least in large part) and also why Kyrie accepted the trade here.  Is this what we all don't understand?  Of course this all speculation and we don't even know if Hayward will turn out to be a good signing.

Kevin Durant would have been a great signing.  I can't think of any others I would classify as great.  I don't consider Hayward a great signing.  I categorize him as decent, certainly best available.  I guess it is all semantics.

The potential downside of any max signing for other than truly elite players if the future opportunity cost due to the money that you have tied up.  So far, we have not had any missed opportunity due to Horford's cap space but now with Hayward on the books too, things are starting to get tight.  We may lose Rozier or Smart for example, or miss out on a FA that becomes available because we have no cap space.  This is why I say decent, not great and why I think many have reservations about the money we have tied up in Horford (and Hayward).

except no one really knows what the lost opportunity cost is.  Maybe if Horford isn't on the books, Ainge pulls the trigger on a trade or uses the cap space differently last summer.  I mean with space for 2 max contracts last summer, maybe Ainge pulls the trigger on the Crowder, Smart, and the 2018 1st for George trade (and since there is cap room no one else has to go out).  Then he still has the room to sign Hayward and then Ainge uses Bradley, Thomas, and the BKN 1st to acquire Irving (Zizic is no longer needed for salary so maybe he is kept or maybe not) and then still adds players like Baynes in free agency.  Maybe Olynyk is able to be kept in that scenario since he wouldn't have to be traded to make room for Hayward anymore.  So Boston rolls out a unit of Irving, Brown, Hayward, George, and Baynes with Rozier, Tatum, Olynyk, Theis, Yabu, etc. on the bench.  Hayward likely doesn't get hurt and maybe with Hayward and George bearing more of the load, Irving's knee surgery can hold off till the off season.  How much different is this playoff seasons with that team rolling out on the floor?

Again who knows what happens, but this idea that Horford was and is the absolutely best way to spend the money isn't a given.  It might very well have been, or it might not have been.

I believe Hayward signed in Boston whether Horford was on the team or not.  Him coming here was about Stevens.

I agree.  I have been disagreeing with the "horrible signing", "Horford is mediocre" and all that.  I stated this is a decent signing.  I believe it was a calculated risk by Ainge understanding that Horford is what he is for max money against the risk of opportunity cost.  Sure, who knows what might have been if we didn't sign Horford, maybe we would somehow have Paul George as someone speculated but we have Al and he has been a really good player.   Not a transcendent player like some seem to expect from a max contract but really good (certainly not mediocre).

[Big333223]

Some people still talk about this signing as though, in the summer of 2016, every player in the league was released from their contract and every team in the league was allowed to bid on their services and the Celtics overbid for Horford.

Obviously this is not how free agency works.

The salary number is contingent not just on skill but on a player's tenure and a number of market variables from the size of the cap, talent of the free agent pool at the time, needs and financial flexibility of other teams, etc. And that's without even getting into the debate about Horford's value as a leader, a defender, a playmaker, and a center who made over 40% of his 3's this season. 

Understanding how NBA contracts are given, there's no question this was a good signing.

[Vox_Populi]

On a team with Hayward and Irving, I'd much rather have Horford than George, so I have no problem with how that turned out.

[Fafnir]

I dont care for or buy the " just the way it is"

Because there is a maximum salary, you cannot pay LBJ 60 million. This heavily distorts the economic market for players.

The new super-max addresses that somewhat but is so restricted its had some strange consequences. (ie its induced teams to trade players rather than give them such a huge deal)

Anyways if you think the Horford contract is comparable to the Melo albatross, I don't know what to tell you.

[Fafnir]

I don't buy it wasn't worth the opportunity cost to sign Horford. C's weren't in the same position then to be a premiere destination. Horford is such a versatile and good player, you don't turn that down in the C's situation.

We've seen how it is now in the NBA, to get the second "big time" player you have to somehow acquire the first piece for them to play with.

[Donoghus]

“Average Al”, my butt.

[rondofan1255]

All Star!!!