Poll

Would it be an Epic Failure

Yes.
11 (19.3%)
No. Still think he can get it done.
46 (80.7%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure  (Read 11087 times)

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Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2019, 09:55:08 AM »

Offline Bobshot

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The Celtics need a big man. They have never won without one. I don't think they can win without a force in the paint.

Vogel, the new Lakers coach, put it well the other day. He said use the perimeter to open up the inside for layups and easy shots. Defend the paint.

The Celtics do neither very well. Davis could be a difference maker. But I'm concerned Stevens is on a different page.


Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2019, 11:26:18 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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The Celtics need a big man. They have never won without one. I don't think they can win without a force in the paint.

Which of the teams that made the conference finals this year did so based on having a big man who is a "force in the paint"?

About the only one you could point to would be the Bucks with Giannis.  I'm not sure he counts as a "big man," especially not in the way you seem to be implying (since he operates from the perimeter even if he scores most of his points inside).
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Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2019, 11:31:21 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think you need a big forward who can anchor your team in a lot of ways to win in today's league. But it doesn't need to be a MVP level guy. Draymond does the job just fine for GSW, LBJ did it for the Cavs/Heat, and Kawhi/Duncan did it for the Spurs.

As the league has gotten smaller so has the size required from this sort of player. It could be a true C like Davis/Embiid but it no longer HAS to be. Not anymore.

One of the reasons I was optimistic about the C's making the Finals before this season went to crap is that Horford fits that mold of a big man who can survive in the modern NBA and hold everything together. Sadly everyone around him turned into a bunch of wet drama noodles.

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2019, 11:39:23 AM »

Offline mobilija

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Considering he passed on Paul George, Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler so that he could keep all his chips for Davis ... yes, it would be a failure.

That's what I said! TP!

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2019, 01:04:17 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
. They have never won without one. I don't think they can win without a force in the paint.

In all honesty, we have had some teams that had worthless big men.   While, I agree we need one, we have not had a quality center since Robert Parrish.   I am of the belief that AL is a PF.  Perk was serviceable.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 01:12:11 PM by Celtics4ever »

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2019, 01:07:26 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Quote
. They have never won without one. I don't think they can win without a force in the paint.

In all honesty, we have had some teams that had worthless big men.   While, I agree we need one, we have not had a quality center since Robert Parrish.   I am of the belief that AL is a PF.

Same here, thing is Al able to consistently guard smaller and quicker 4s? That's the question although he will assert his dominance in the post.
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Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2019, 02:57:15 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think you need a big forward who can anchor your team in a lot of ways to win in today's league. But it doesn't need to be a MVP level guy. Draymond does the job just fine for GSW, LBJ did it for the Cavs/Heat, and Kawhi/Duncan did it for the Spurs.

As the league has gotten smaller so has the size required from this sort of player. It could be a true C like Davis/Embiid but it no longer HAS to be. Not anymore.

One of the reasons I was optimistic about the C's making the Finals before this season went to crap is that Horford fits that mold of a big man who can survive in the modern NBA and hold everything together. Sadly everyone around him turned into a bunch of wet drama noodles.



I agree.


Though I would say that I think talking about "needing" a player with a specific skillset at a certain position is too reductive, especially in the modern "positionless" NBA.


I think the reason that big men were always so valuable is that having a great big man provided a consistent, reliable way to get high percentage scoring opportunities (i.e. in the paint), and also gave a team an edge in terms of grabbing rebounds and preventing the other team from getting good looks. 

If you look at constructing a contender as an exercise in putting the right elements in place to increase your margin for error / lower the degree of difficulty for scoring more points than the opponent, having a great big man, historically, was the easiest way to get there.


As you point out, these days a lot of teams accomplish it with a combination of elite outside shooting and multi-talented forwards. 

I think one of the biggest problem with how this year's Celts team was constructed was that they simply didn't have a reliable, consistent option for maintaining their scoring.  All of their most talented players stood out primarily by creating jumpshots.  The offense only really looked dangerous when the lead guys got really hot from outside.  They didn't get to the line, they didn't create a lot of transition opportunities, they didn't get many second chance opportunities, and they didn't regularly attack the rim.  Really tough to win that way.

That's part of why simply bringing back Kyrie and Horford along with Hayward, Tatum, and Brown seems like a futile exercise.  Even if the chemistry is better, they're still going to be a dish with too much of one flavor.



I can imagine a team built around a great guard and a balanced supporting cast, but that guard would need to be able to create a lot of high percentage looks for himself and others (contrast with Kyrie who specializes in hitting an above average rate on low percentage looks). 

Houston is a team that comes to mind in that regard, but the Warriors have been able to solve them because they play the Rockets' big men off the floor and defend with discipline so Harden can't get to the line a million times.

To some extent though, I wonder if there's any point in thinking about what could theoretically beat the Warriors when considering the best way to build a contender.  Is anybody beating the Warriors if they dont' first beat themselves?  Even in 2016 the Warriors had to make some major unforced errors for the Cavs to have a chance.

In a league without a crazy juggernaut on par with the Warriors (i.e. the league for most of the period between, say, 2002 and 2016), a team like the Rockets probably would have come much closer to winning a title.

Chances are the next Celtics title will come after this iteration of the Warriors is either done altogether or is distinctively on the decline.
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Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2019, 07:17:09 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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There's just no way this AD to Boston deal is not happening.

This will be the only time the Pels can get multiple picks plus a young player or players with star potential.

Ainge went all in for AD when he failed to upgrade the team at the trade deadline this year.

Not upgrading the team meant Ainge was telling fans to wait.

The Bucks, Sixers, and Raptors all upgraded their roster at the trade deadline.

Players like Mirotic, Marc Gasol, and Toby Harris all had an impact in the playoffs.

Ainge didn't keep up with the other east contenders, opting to win the Anthony Davis sweepstakes.

So Ainge better make it happen or the Celts will be close to where they were when Isaiah Thomas got injured in the 2017 playoffs.

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2019, 07:31:55 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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There's just no way this AD to Boston deal is not happening.


Sure there is.  If the Pelicans decide they love a player they want to select with the #3 pick, they could go for whatever the Knicks offer.

Or maybe Gail Benson decides she can't stomach trading him at all, and Griffin and Co. think they can convince him to stay if he just plays a few months with Zion.


Or perhaps Danny will refuse to throw in Tatum AND Brown AND the Memphis pick, and New Orleans will refuse to negotiate further.


I agree that the Celtics probably have the strongest offer if they're willing to put their best assets on the table.

So much depends on how the Pelicans view all of the various potential trade pieces.  A great deal depends as well on whether the Pelicans are serious about thinking they can convince AD to stick around.


Even if the Pelicans decide to wait until the 2020 trade deadline, that could force the Celtics' to make other moves if Kyrie won't commit to sticking around without knowing that AD is on board.
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Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #84 on: May 23, 2019, 07:37:32 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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There's just no way this AD to Boston deal is not happening.


Sure there is.  If the Pelicans decide they love a player they want to select with the #3 pick, they could go for whatever the Knicks offer.

Or maybe Gail Benson decides she can't stomach trading him at all, and Griffin and Co. think they can convince him to stay if he just plays a few months with Zion.


Or perhaps Danny will refuse to throw in Tatum AND Brown AND the Memphis pick, and New Orleans will refuse to negotiate further.


I agree that the Celtics probably have the strongest offer if they're willing to put their best assets on the table.

So much depends on how the Pelicans view all of the various potential trade pieces.  A great deal depends as well on whether the Pelicans are serious about thinking they can convince AD to stick around.


Even if the Pelicans decide to wait until the 2020 trade deadline, that could force the Celtics' to make other moves if Kyrie won't commit to sticking around without knowing that AD is on board.

AD already burned bridges, so to speak, in New Orleans.
He even wore a shirt that had a "That's all folks!" print at the last game of the regular season.
So there's no turning back for AD.

Also, the multiple picks the Celts have to offer will only be available for a certain amount of time.
If the Pels and the Celts have a deal, the Celts will be picking for the Pels.
But if there's no imminent deal, the Celts will be picking players that they want.

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2019, 07:51:27 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Re: the burned bridges thing, if the Pelicans folks I follow on Twitter are any indication, the fans will be perfectly happy to welcome AD back if he's interested in giving it a go with Holiday and Zion.
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Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2019, 07:56:07 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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Re: the burned bridges thing, if the Pelicans folks I follow on Twitter are any indication, the fans will be perfectly happy to welcome AD back if he's interested in giving it a go with Holiday and Zion.

Holiday and Zion?

Seriously?

The Pels won't even come close to beating the Nuggets!

AD is good as gone.
The only question is where he lands.

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2019, 07:56:19 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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There's just no way this AD to Boston deal is not happening.

This will be the only time the Pels can get multiple picks plus a young player or players with star potential.

Ainge went all in for AD when he failed to upgrade the team at the trade deadline this year.

Not upgrading the team meant Ainge was telling fans to wait.

The Bucks, Sixers, and Raptors all upgraded their roster at the trade deadline.

Players like Mirotic, Marc Gasol, and Toby Harris all had an impact in the playoffs.

Ainge didn't keep up with the other east contenders, opting to win the Anthony Davis sweepstakes.

So Ainge better make it happen or the Celts will be close to where they were when Isaiah Thomas got injured in the 2017 playoffs.

Whats funny is on one hand you state Brown and Tatum are middle of the pack
Talents

Yet Pelicans will definitely trade AD for one or both of these guys

So why do they want to go from top talent (AD) to middle of the pack talents?

How does this make sense?

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2019, 08:09:49 PM »

Offline CF033

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There's just no way this AD to Boston deal is not happening.


Sure there is.  If the Pelicans decide they love a player they want to select with the #3 pick, they could go for whatever the Knicks offer.

Or maybe Gail Benson decides she can't stomach trading him at all, and Griffin and Co. think they can convince him to stay if he just plays a few months with Zion.


Or perhaps Danny will refuse to throw in Tatum AND Brown AND the Memphis pick, and New Orleans will refuse to negotiate further.


I agree that the Celtics probably have the strongest offer if they're willing to put their best assets on the table.

So much depends on how the Pelicans view all of the various potential trade pieces.  A great deal depends as well on whether the Pelicans are serious about thinking they can convince AD to stick around.


Even if the Pelicans decide to wait until the 2020 trade deadline, that could force the Celtics' to make other moves if Kyrie won't commit to sticking around without knowing that AD is on board.

Also, Kyrie could be leaving the Celts whether or not we trade for Davis. I don't think Ainge is pulling the trigger unless Kyrie is committed to staying here.

Re: Poll: If DA can't Land AD, Epic Failure
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2019, 08:23:11 PM »

Online liam

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I'm thinking that now Smart made the all defensive team that the offer of Smart, Tatum and Yabu and # 14 pick this year is a great offer without anything else added.