Is PHX the worst run team in the NBA?

[slamtheking]

Detroit = only 4-5 GMs in the league have been as successful as Joe Dumars over the last 10-15 years. Sure, he has made mistakes but he has done a bloody lot right too. He doesn't belong on this list.

Going after Phoenix and not Detroit? I mean Dumars did more with Detroit early on, but he has also done worse since.

Darko is almost unforgivable. It's close. When you pass up on Melo, Wade, and Bosh for Darko you blow the chance at history and a dynasty. He pulled the cord too early in Detroit. They were two wins away from beating Boston and going on against the Bynum-less Lakers with HCA in the Finals. If not for Boston they probably win the title.

The next year KG goes down. Now obviously no one could have predicted that but what if Dumars kept it together one more year? Instead of trading Billups, who went on to have a career year, for Iverson he could have added a MLE guy and went for it again. They likely make the finals and potentially beat LA with the way Billups was playing.

Dumars was WAY too impulsive. Iverson was a disaster and sent home. He then impulsively signs Ben Gordon after a great playoff series against the KG-less Celtics for 55 million. He has since had to trade a first round pick to dump that deal. Villaunueva is a disaster.

Dumars is VERY overrated and Detroit has been horrible ever since they traded Billups for Iverson.

1 NBA Title
2 Finals Appearances
6 Conference Finals
7 Fifty win seasons

How many GMs have accomplishments like that on their resume?

Danny Ainge. RC Buford. Mitch Kupchak. Pat Riley. Donnie Nelson. Five guys in the entire NBA. That's it. Joe Dumars has been at worst the 6th most successful GM in the NBA over the last 10-15 years.

while not discounting your point, the GM business is very much a "what have you done for us lately" situation.  Dumars hasn't done much right for years

[Kane3387]

Detroit = only 4-5 GMs in the league have been as successful as Joe Dumars over the last 10-15 years. Sure, he has made mistakes but he has done a bloody lot right too. He doesn't belong on this list.

Going after Phoenix and not Detroit? I mean Dumars did more with Detroit early on, but he has also done worse since.

Darko is almost unforgivable. It's close. When you pass up on Melo, Wade, and Bosh for Darko you blow the chance at history and a dynasty. He pulled the cord too early in Detroit. They were two wins away from beating Boston and going on against the Bynum-less Lakers with HCA in the Finals. If not for Boston they probably win the title.

The next year KG goes down. Now obviously no one could have predicted that but what if Dumars kept it together one more year? Instead of trading Billups, who went on to have a career year, for Iverson he could have added a MLE guy and went for it again. They likely make the finals and potentially beat LA with the way Billups was playing.

Dumars was WAY too impulsive. Iverson was a disaster and sent home. He then impulsively signs Ben Gordon after a great playoff series against the KG-less Celtics for 55 million. He has since had to trade a first round pick to dump that deal. Villaunueva is a disaster.

Dumars is VERY overrated and Detroit has been horrible ever since they traded Billups for Iverson.

1 NBA Title
2 Finals Appearances
6 Conference Finals
7 Fifty win seasons

How many GMs have accomplishments like that on their resume?

Danny Ainge. RC Buford. Mitch Kupchak. Pat Riley. Donnie Nelson. Five guys in the entire NBA. That's it. Joe Dumars has been at worst the 6th most successful GM in the NBA over the last 10-15 years.

I do see your point Who. There are few posters on this board whose analysis and opinion I respect as much as yours, but I respectfully disagree here. The Detroit Pistons have been one of the worst run franchises the past five years in the NBA in my opinion.

TP

[indeedproceed]

The Kings, followed by the Bobcats, then the Magic.

[bfrombleacher]

The Kings, followed by the Bobcats, then the Magic.

The Magic are actually playing near 500 ball.

The Bobcats' have been losing every game since their winning streak so I'll agree with that.

[ssspence]

I'd still prefer to have Gortat and Beasley over Bass and Terry on this Cs team if it meant they didn't have to give up either Sully or Bradley to get Gortat (which I personally believe they're highly unlikely to do).

Based on the "all roads go through Miami" theory, I think Terry is the best asset on that list. I can see him winning us a couple of playoff games almost all by himself.

Yeah, I agree.

I don't think Gortat will be all that valuable against Miami. I think he'll be more valuable against non-Miami teams. Teams with bigger lineups. I think his main value will be as a backup center. Less optimistic about a KG-Gortat duo against Miami. I think they can handle that well.

I think Jason Terry would make the largest contribution out of those four players in a series against Miami. He did a really good job against them in the Finals two years ago.

Lee is interchangeable financially and likely more attractive to a team like PHX anyway. I get concerned about size in the Cs backcourt, but see the reasoning behind keeping Terry over Lee.

[mgent]

I think it's still too early to write off Beasley.

He has spent the last couple of years in some of the worst situations in the league in Phoenix and Minnesota. In each place Beasley was mismanaged by the coaching staff. 

I want to see what happens to him in a good home. Shift him back to power forward and give him a run of a extended minutes in a role where he can just focus on what he does well.

What does he do well?  He shoots a lot of contested long two's.  He is still doing that in Phoenix.  Power forward, small forward- he takes the exact same shots.

Score the ball.

Beasley is a really good scorer. He can put the ball in the hoop in a variety of a different ways. He has a post game as a power three. A face up game where he can take his opponent off the dribble. Is a very good finisher around the basket with both hands. Has a midrange shot. Has a long two point shot. Has a three point shot. Spread the floor. He can play pick and roll, pick and pop. Excellent scorer in transition for a big forward. Can make free throws but doesn't earn many trips to the FT line.

He is an efficient scorer in many of those areas but his shot distribution between those areas is poor (like you say, too many contested long twos). Even a small improvement would make a large difference to his overall scoring efficiency.

Beasley is a 4/3 who should primarily play the power forward position because he can better defend and rebound that position. His perimeter defense against small forwards is horrific and negates any positive contributions he makes offensively. His defense at the four is below average but passable and could become average with some work.

The other area for him is to become a bit better as a passer. I don't think he'll ever become a good passer but he needs to be less of a black hole than he currently is.

I think those improvements in each are achievable and realistic for Beasley.

Is 2.5 assists really that bad for a SF?  He's no Paul Pierce but definitely not below average, and arguably above average among forwards (4th in AST% for SFs).

[indeedproceed]

The Kings, followed by the Bobcats, then the Magic.

The Magic are actually playing near 500 ball.

The Bobcats' have been losing every game since their winning streak so I'll agree with that.

Who are the three best players on the magic?

They traded the second or third most valuable player in basketball, and what did they get back? What long term prospect did they get back? What high value draft pick?

The Thunder traded a guy who was also due a contract extension. What did they get back?

[bfrombleacher]

The Kings, followed by the Bobcats, then the Magic.

The Magic are actually playing near 500 ball.

The Bobcats' have been losing every game since their winning streak so I'll agree with that.

Who are the three best players on the magic?

They traded the second or third most valuable player in basketball, and what did they get back? What long term prospect did they get back? What high value draft pick?

The Thunder traded a guy who was also due a contract extension. What did they get back?

Right - worst run.

The team is playing inspired right now though.

[indeedproceed]

The Kings, followed by the Bobcats, then the Magic.

The Magic are actually playing near 500 ball.

The Bobcats' have been losing every game since their winning streak so I'll agree with that.

Who are the three best players on the magic?

They traded the second or third most valuable player in basketball, and what did they get back? What long term prospect did they get back? What high value draft pick?

The Thunder traded a guy who was also due a contract extension. What did they get back?

Right - worst run.

The team is playing inspired right now though.

They've got a bunch or rotation caliber players. Nelson, Affalo, Davis, and Vucevic are all guys who could be on contenders rotations, Affalo as a starter.

But they're playing above their heads right now. This too shall pass.

[Celts Fan 92]

Worst run?  Not sure.  But this team has taken a step back for like 7 consecutive years.  That's pretty hard to do. 

Beasley is one of the worst players in the league and plenty of people on celticsblog have wanted him year after year.  Better Phoenix than the Celtics.  He not only sucks, but he is a cancer.

u reachin badly wit da bolded Beasley can score from anywhere on da court nd when he's hot its problems. da only thing wit him is mentally nd his weed smokin i wouldnt call him anywhere near da worst player in da league

[indeedproceed]

Worst run?  Not sure.  But this team has taken a step back for like 7 consecutive years.  That's pretty hard to do. 

Beasley is one of the worst players in the league and plenty of people on celticsblog have wanted him year after year.  Better Phoenix than the Celtics.  He not only sucks, but he is a cancer.

u reachin badly wit da bolded Beasley can score from anywhere on da court nd when he's hot its problems. da only thing wit him is mentally nd his weed smokin i wouldnt call him anywhere near da worst player in da league

Yeah, he's a far cry from the worst in the league. But he's also a malcontent, still mostly a defensive liability, and not a guy you want starting yet.

[BballTim]

Detroit = only 4-5 GMs in the league have been as successful as Joe Dumars over the last 10-15 years. Sure, he has made mistakes but he has done a bloody lot right too. He doesn't belong on this list.

Going after Phoenix and not Detroit? I mean Dumars did more with Detroit early on, but he has also done worse since.

Darko is almost unforgivable. It's close. When you pass up on Melo, Wade, and Bosh for Darko you blow the chance at history and a dynasty. He pulled the cord too early in Detroit. They were two wins away from beating Boston and going on against the Bynum-less Lakers with HCA in the Finals. If not for Boston they probably win the title.

The next year KG goes down. Now obviously no one could have predicted that but what if Dumars kept it together one more year? Instead of trading Billups, who went on to have a career year, for Iverson he could have added a MLE guy and went for it again. They likely make the finals and potentially beat LA with the way Billups was playing.

Dumars was WAY too impulsive. Iverson was a disaster and sent home. He then impulsively signs Ben Gordon after a great playoff series against the KG-less Celtics for 55 million. He has since had to trade a first round pick to dump that deal. Villaunueva is a disaster.

Dumars is VERY overrated and Detroit has been horrible ever since they traded Billups for Iverson.

  He let Okur leave so he'd have enough money to re-sign Ben Wallace, then got outbid for Wallace by Chicago. That was pretty bad as well.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

I think the Kings and the Bobcats have something to say about it.

[indeedproceed]

Dumars to me has had two major missteps:

1) Darko

2) resigning Hamilton and inexplicably Prince

Aside from that (letting Okur go, investing too much in Stuckey), his missteps have been tiny. Dumars has them back on the right path. Monroe is a blue chip prospect. Drummond was the type of risky move you need. Jerebko, Maxiell, Bynum are the types of guys smart GMs take on. Dumars already has a more promising young team with less than rebuild projects like Charlotte have tried to produce with better draft picks. I'd rather have Detroits roster than Washington or Sacramento's.

[Boris Badenov]

Worst run?  Not sure.  But this team has taken a step back for like 7 consecutive years.  That's pretty hard to do. 

Beasley is one of the worst players in the league and plenty of people on celticsblog have wanted him year after year.  Better Phoenix than the Celtics.  He not only sucks, but he is a cancer.

u reachin badly wit da bolded Beasley can score from anywhere on da court nd when he's hot its problems. da only thing wit him is mentally nd his weed smokin i wouldnt call him anywhere near da worst player in da league

Take a look here:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213PHO.HTM

The Suns are 19.5 points worse with him on the floor vs. off. I checked every other team, and among players who've played more than 30% of their team's minutes, there is no one worse in terms of net plus/minus. Not a single player.

If you dig into the numbers it looks even worse, mostly because Beasley makes his team worse offensively and flat out awful defensively.

                                     On court             Off court

Points scored/48              103                   107
Points allowed/48             118                   100
FG% alllowed                     55%                  48%
Offensive rebounding        28%                 33%
Defensive rebounding       67%                  73%


This surprised me. There is actually a case here that he is one of the worst players in the league, at least compared to other players with substantive court time.