Full Basketball HOF Class of '24 Announced

[Donoghus]

Tracy McGrady made the HoF.

How does Vince measure up relative to McGrady?

McGrady was the better player and had the higher peak.  Carter had the longevity.  Crazy to think that T-Mac's career was essentially done by 30.

[aefgogreen]

Now that they let Billups in as a player, they should also let him in as a contributor since he just made it possible for any halfway decent player to now get in the HOF.

[Moranis]

Tracy McGrady made the HoF.

How does Vince measure up relative to McGrady?

McGrady was better.

2 1st Team, 3 2nd Team, 2 3rd Team (so as many 1st teams as Vince had any teams)
6 seasons of MVP votes finishing between 4 and 8 all years (so higher than Vince all seasons and 2 extra years)
7 all star games (so just 1 less)
2 years leading the league in ppg (Vince never got higher than 4th, which tmac also had)

Vince played a lot longer, but McGrady was significantly better and has significantly more contemporaneous awards, teams, etc.  It isn't particularly close. TMac is a HOFer and Vince should not be.

[Donoghus]

Now that they let Billups in as a player, they should also let him in as a contributor since he just made it possible for any halfway decent player to now get in the HOF.

Rondo is up in '26.  It's going to interesting to see what happens with him.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Now that they let Billups in as a player, they should also let him in as a contributor since he just made it possible for any halfway decent player to now get in the HOF.

LOL. Is Billups the Craig Biggio of the Basketball Hall of Fame?

[Moranis]

Billups is more deserving than Carter.

[Who]

Billups is more deserving than Carter.

Agreed. Billups deserves to be in the HoF.

[Who]

I am not sure I see T-Mac and Vince as much different.

T-Mac's lack of playoff success is a huge counter against him. He never got out of the first round. His Orlando wasn't much good due to the Grant Hill injury but in Houston Tracy had Yao Ming.

In comparison, Vince got out of the first round with his Toronto Raptors and pushed Philly to 7 in the 2nd round who went on to make the Finals. That team like T-Mac's Magic had no-star for Vince Carter. In New Jersey, alongside Jason Kidd, Vince got to the 2nd round twice. Unlike Tracy who failed to get out of the first round next to Yao Ming. So in both comparisons, Vince out-succeeded McGrady.

[Who]

I am using T-Mac's final season in Toronto until the end of his 2008 season here. I am using Vince's rookie season until the end of his 2009 season.

T-Mac = 636 games 24.9ppg, 6.4rpg 5.2apg

I could ignore T-Mac's Toronto year but I loved that version of T-Mac. He looked like the next Scottie Pippen in the 2nd half of that season. Clear future All-Star Then he broke out as a superstar scorer the following year. If you discount that year.

T-Mac = 557 games 26.3ppg 6.4rpg 5.5apg 2.6 TO
       = 43.6% FG% 34% 3PT% 75% FT% 52.5% TS%

So I am including Vince's rookie year here. Not an All-Star yet similar to T-Mac's last year in Toronto but like T-Mac clearly a star for the future.

Vince = 777 games 23.5ppg 5.5rpg 4.3apg

Or if we ignore that rookie year

Vince = 727 games 23.9ppg 5.4rpg 4.4apg 2.4 TO
    = 44.6% FG% 37.8% 3PT% 79.9% FT% 53.9% TS%

There is not much difference there. T-Mac scores 2.4ppg more, one rebound and one assist more. Same TOs. Vince a bit more efficient at +1.4% TS%. More consistent outside shooter and FT shooter. 

[Who]

3yr stretch for Vince at statistical peak in TOR
4yr stretch of T-Mac at statistical peak in ORL

Vince = 26.1ppg 5.6rpg 3.9apg 2.5 stocks 2.3 TO
       = 45.3% FG% 40% 3PT% 78.3% FT% 53.8% TS%

T-Mac = 28.1ppg 7.0rpg 5.2apg 2.5 stocks 2.6 TO
    = 44.6% FG% 36.1% 3PT% 76.8% FT% 53.7% TS%

So equal shooting efficiency with solid improvement in points (2ppg), rebounds (1.4rpg) and assists (1.3apg). Equal steals & blocks (stocks).

[Who]

Compare 4yr stretch in NJ for Vince vs HOU for T-Mac

Vince = 23.9ppg 5.8rpg 4.6apg 1.7 stocks 2.5 TO
     = 44.8% FG% 36.4% 3PT% 80.3% FT% 54.6% TS%

T-Mac = 24.1ppg 5.8rpg 5.8apg 2.0 stocks 2.6 TO
     = 42.3% FG% 31.7% 3PT% 73.1% FT% 50.8% TS%

Vince played about 50 extra games over this period.

So scoring and rebounds are identical. Good bump for T-Mac in assists (+1.2apg) & small bump in stocks (steals & blocks). Huge advantage in shooting stats for Vince, FG% 3PT% FT% and +3.8% in TS%.

Was T-Mac's Houston years really that much better than Vince's New Jersey years? I don't think they were.

[Finkelskyhook]

Tracy McGrady made the HoF.

How does Vince measure up relative to McGrady?

They measure up the same. 

They both tanked on their teams to force trades.  Throw Iverson in the mix, too.

Nobody who does that at any point in their career should sniff the HOF.

[BASS_THUMPER]

Leon "PIMPIN" Powe




and

Eddie House





*sippin*

[Neurotic Guy]

I don't think Kobe was as big as Vince in 1999-01. He was huge before Vince came into the league and then Vince blew him out of the water in 1999-00. Vince became the heir apparent to MJ over Kobe during this period.

Obviously, this didn't last. Kobe retook top spot over Vince. Probably in 2002 onwards.

and yet Kobe was making higher All NBA teams during that stretch.  Vince was certainly popular with fans, but it didn't translate on the court.

I may be misinterpreting but it sounds like you are suggesting that All NBA teams are objectively determined.  Probably a better measure than fan love, but All-NBA is deeply impacted by personal preferences in addition to the quality of competition at the particular position - which is extremely era dependent.  Kobe likely had a bit of an edge being in LA and on great teams.  I don't think Vince was Kobe, but there is some space between Kobe as a HOFer and the guys who squeak in.  To me, Vince is a pretty obvious Hall of Fame player. My favorite player in my youth was JoJo White, Hall of Famer. He had nowhere near the HOF credentials of Vince Carter, other than playing on two championship teams alongside HOFers Cowens and Havlicek.

[Moranis]

Who that is all nice, but why then was TMac consistently on All NBA Teams while Carter was not. Because TMac was better and by a wide enough margin that they weren't close despite competing for the same spots on those teams.  The contemporary people that covered the league definitively, clearly, and consistently told everyone that McGrady was better and it wasn't close.