Allen for CarterTrade--Discussion on what is realistic trade return for Allen

[thedawg]

Why are the Celtics not even contemplating getting LeBron? Why are we dealing with players that can get money off the books for other teams so they can go for LeBron?  Are we not in a position to go for LeBron?  (Not looked at the payroll).

[Mr October]

Why are the Celtics not even contemplating getting LeBron? Why are we dealing with players that can get money off the books for other teams so they can go for LeBron?  Are we not in a position to go for LeBron?  (Not looked at the payroll).

In theory the C's could play their cards right and have anywhere from 8-10 million in cap space in 2010, if we're willing to loose 2/3 of our roster. Lebron will command a starting price of $15+. Depending on the new collective bargaining rules, LJ could even get more. He won't be a Celtic.

[fairweatherfan06]

The overstatement of Ray Allen's place in history is absurd in this thread.  Top 15 SG all time?  really when did that happen?  That's only possible if you start putting swing players at the other position they play and then still may not happen.   

Greatest shooter ever, when did that happen?  Last time I checked he isn't even the greatest active shooter as both Nash and Peja are ahead of him in both free throw percentage and three point percentage.  Granted Allen is 7th all time in FT% and he could pass Skiles up rather easily next season for 6th all time, but as far as 3PT shooting goes Allen is 33rd all time behind 17 players that have already retired.  To call him the greatest shooter of all time is absolutely absurd.  I think you almost have to say it is Nash at this point as he is the only guy ranking in the top five in each of those categories (guys like Rick Barry who weren't around much of the 3 point era could also make the claim).

He's second all time in 3 pointers made and will likely surpass Reggie Miller in the next 2 years.

[Moranis]

The overstatement of Ray Allen's place in history is absurd in this thread.  Top 15 SG all time?  really when did that happen?  That's only possible if you start putting swing players at the other position they play and then still may not happen.   

Greatest shooter ever, when did that happen?  Last time I checked he isn't even the greatest active shooter as both Nash and Peja are ahead of him in both free throw percentage and three point percentage.  Granted Allen is 7th all time in FT% and he could pass Skiles up rather easily next season for 6th all time, but as far as 3PT shooting goes Allen is 33rd all time behind 17 players that have already retired.  To call him the greatest shooter of all time is absolutely absurd.  I think you almost have to say it is Nash at this point as he is the only guy ranking in the top five in each of those categories (guys like Rick Barry who weren't around much of the 3 point era could also make the claim).

He's second all time in 3 pointers made and will likely surpass Reggie Miller in the next 2 years.

Toine is 9th on that list.

I think I've said enough to end that nonsense.

[nickagneta]

Why are the Celtics not even contemplating getting LeBron? Why are we dealing with players that can get money off the books for other teams so they can go for LeBron?  Are we not in a position to go for LeBron?  (Not looked at the payroll).

In theory the C's could play their cards right and have anywhere from 8-10 million in cap space in 2010, if we're willing to loose 2/3 of our roster. Lebron will command a starting price of $15+. Depending on the new collective bargaining rules, LJ could even get more. He won't be a Celtic.

Roy addressed this in a thread yesterday, the Celtics at best would have only about $7 million in cap space free if they did everything in their power to get lower short of trading KG or PP for an expiring contract.

[fairweatherfan06]

Also I didn't base my assertion on nothing.  Here's ESPN's list in order:

Jordan
Bryant
Gervin
Iverson
Drexler
Miller
Maravich
Monroe
Dumars

Here is the list of other people receiving votes:
Others receiving votes (points): Sam Jones (31), Dwyane Wade (23), Hal Greer (19), David Thompson (14), Bill Sharman (9), Dave Bing (6), Tracy McGrady (5), Sidney Moncrief (5), Manu Ginobili (4), Ray Allen (3), Paul Arizin (2), Vince Carter (2), Dennis Johnson (1), Gail Goodrich (1), Drazen Petrovic (1), Mitch Richmond (1), Jimmy Walker (1).

Now from my point of view Gervin is a SF,  AI is a combo guard (which I think there have been enough in the NBA's history for them to merit their own category BTW) leaning more towards PG.

People on the (top 10) list I think Ray is better than:  Drexler, Miller and Dumars (though he did play great D so I see the argument).  Looking at the other list D-Wade will likely make the top 15 if he doesn't continue to be injured, and I think Sam Jones deserves to be in the top 10 argument but outside of that really Ray is not in the argument? For top 15?  I'm not making a leap of faith here.

[nickagneta]

Also I didn't base my assertion on nothing.  Here's ESPN's list in order:

Jordan
Bryant
Gervin
Iverson
Drexler
Miller
Maravich
Monroe
Dumars

Here is the list of other people receiving votes:
Others receiving votes (points): Sam Jones (31), Dwyane Wade (23), Hal Greer (19), David Thompson (14), Bill Sharman (9), Dave Bing (6), Tracy McGrady (5), Sidney Moncrief (5), Manu Ginobili (4), Ray Allen (3), Paul Arizin (2), Vince Carter (2), Dennis Johnson (1), Gail Goodrich (1), Drazen Petrovic (1), Mitch Richmond (1), Jimmy Walker (1).

Now from my point of view Gervin is a SF,  AI is a combo guard (which I think there have been enough in the NBA's history for them to merit their own category BTW) leaning more towards PG.

People on the (top 10) list I think Ray is better than:  Drexler, Miller and Dumars (though he did play great D so I see the argument).  Looking at the other list D-Wade will likely make the top 15 if he doesn't continue to be injured, and I think Sam Jones deserves to be in the top 10 argument but outside of that really Ray is not in the argument? For top 15?  I'm not making a leap of faith here.

Gervin was a shooting guard. Period. End of story. Just because he was big for his generation at the position and did SF stuff doesn't make him one. He played SG.

AI is always listed as a 2 guard but I think it's ridiculous. He has played as much if not more at the 1 as he has at the 2 over his career. When he and Eric Snow were in Philly together they were pretty much playing a 2 PG system.

But to the list. Here's the guys, in no particular order, I would have ahead of Ray right now, though not neccessarily when his career ends:
Jordan
Bryant
Gervin
Drexler
Iverson - although as I said I think the man is a PG, has been always will be
Miller
Monroe
Moncrief
Bing
Sharman
Jones
Greer

So he might already be in the top 15 already in my book because at the moment. I don't think there is all that much difference between any on following players in regards to skills or numbers or accomplishments:
Wade
Allen
Thompson
McGrady
Carter
Richmond
Ginobelli

I think the resume of the first 12 speak for themselves. The last group of guys all have something that both separates them and brings them back to the pack.

Another Celtic title where Ray plays defense and offense as well as he did last year and I think he cements his position in the top 13. Another title and 4 more years of around 20 PPG and high FT% and 3PT% and Ray may just pass by Miller, Moncrief(no titles for either), Bing, Monroe, and Greer(better overall career stats than these three guys.

[fairweatherfan06]

thank you Nick for addressing my thought process... I can get with your rationale.  TP for you.

[Moranis]

Also I didn't base my assertion on nothing.  Here's ESPN's list in order:

Jordan
Bryant
Gervin
Iverson
Drexler
Miller
Maravich
Monroe
Dumars

Here is the list of other people receiving votes:
Others receiving votes (points): Sam Jones (31), Dwyane Wade (23), Hal Greer (19), David Thompson (14), Bill Sharman (9), Dave Bing (6), Tracy McGrady (5), Sidney Moncrief (5), Manu Ginobili (4), Ray Allen (3), Paul Arizin (2), Vince Carter (2), Dennis Johnson (1), Gail Goodrich (1), Drazen Petrovic (1), Mitch Richmond (1), Jimmy Walker (1).

Now from my point of view Gervin is a SF,  AI is a combo guard (which I think there have been enough in the NBA's history for them to merit their own category BTW) leaning more towards PG.

People on the (top 10) list I think Ray is better than:  Drexler, Miller and Dumars (though he did play great D so I see the argument).  Looking at the other list D-Wade will likely make the top 15 if he doesn't continue to be injured, and I think Sam Jones deserves to be in the top 10 argument but outside of that really Ray is not in the argument? For top 15?  I'm not making a leap of faith here.

Gervin was a shooting guard. Period. End of story. Just because he was big for his generation at the position and did SF stuff doesn't make him one. He played SG.

AI is always listed as a 2 guard but I think it's ridiculous. He has played as much if not more at the 1 as he has at the 2 over his career. When he and Eric Snow were in Philly together they were pretty much playing a 2 PG system.

But to the list. Here's the guys, in no particular order, I would have ahead of Ray right now, though not neccessarily when his career ends:
Jordan
Bryant
Gervin
Drexler
Iverson - although as I said I think the man is a PG, has been always will be
Miller
Monroe
Moncrief
Bing
Sharman
Jones
Greer

So he might already be in the top 15 already in my book because at the moment. I don't think there is all that much difference between any on following players in regards to skills or numbers or accomplishments:
Wade
Allen
Thompson
McGrady
Carter
Richmond
Ginobelli

I think the resume of the first 12 speak for themselves. The last group of guys all have something that both separates them and brings them back to the pack.

Another Celtic title where Ray plays defense and offense as well as he did last year and I think he cements his position in the top 13. Another title and 4 more years of around 20 PPG and high FT% and 3PT% and Ray may just pass by Miller, Moncrief(no titles for either), Bing, Monroe, and Greer(better overall career stats than these three guys.

I'd take Dumars over him without question.  There are two sides to the floor and it isn't close defensively. 

Oscar Robertson played the vast majority of his career as a SG with Adrian Smith as the PG.  Oscar often didn't bring the ball up nor guard the opposing PG, that was Smith's job.  The Royals did run their offense through Oscar in the half court, which is how he got the majority of his assists.  (think a bigger better version of Iverson)

Paul Arizin made the NBA 50 at 50 list.  He is ahead of Allen.

Adrian Dantley was every bit the scorer that Ray Allen was and was a better all around player.  Some would list him as a SF, but he spent a lot of time at SG.

Many call Jerry West a SG, especially since he played so many years with Goodrich (one of them was the SG).  I can see having him as a PG, but he played a ton at SG.

You could make arguments for many others given Allen's weakness on the defensive side of the court. 

[ma11l]

I'd rather have Scal starting at SG than Vince Carter.  No way do I want him on this team.

[nickagneta]

Also I didn't base my assertion on nothing.  Here's ESPN's list in order:

Jordan
Bryant
Gervin
Iverson
Drexler
Miller
Maravich
Monroe
Dumars

Here is the list of other people receiving votes:
Others receiving votes (points): Sam Jones (31), Dwyane Wade (23), Hal Greer (19), David Thompson (14), Bill Sharman (9), Dave Bing (6), Tracy McGrady (5), Sidney Moncrief (5), Manu Ginobili (4), Ray Allen (3), Paul Arizin (2), Vince Carter (2), Dennis Johnson (1), Gail Goodrich (1), Drazen Petrovic (1), Mitch Richmond (1), Jimmy Walker (1).

Now from my point of view Gervin is a SF,  AI is a combo guard (which I think there have been enough in the NBA's history for them to merit their own category BTW) leaning more towards PG.

People on the (top 10) list I think Ray is better than:  Drexler, Miller and Dumars (though he did play great D so I see the argument).  Looking at the other list D-Wade will likely make the top 15 if he doesn't continue to be injured, and I think Sam Jones deserves to be in the top 10 argument but outside of that really Ray is not in the argument? For top 15?  I'm not making a leap of faith here.

Gervin was a shooting guard. Period. End of story. Just because he was big for his generation at the position and did SF stuff doesn't make him one. He played SG.

AI is always listed as a 2 guard but I think it's ridiculous. He has played as much if not more at the 1 as he has at the 2 over his career. When he and Eric Snow were in Philly together they were pretty much playing a 2 PG system.

But to the list. Here's the guys, in no particular order, I would have ahead of Ray right now, though not neccessarily when his career ends:
Jordan
Bryant
Gervin
Drexler
Iverson - although as I said I think the man is a PG, has been always will be
Miller
Monroe
Moncrief
Bing
Sharman
Jones
Greer

So he might already be in the top 15 already in my book because at the moment. I don't think there is all that much difference between any on following players in regards to skills or numbers or accomplishments:
Wade
Allen
Thompson
McGrady
Carter
Richmond
Ginobelli

I think the resume of the first 12 speak for themselves. The last group of guys all have something that both separates them and brings them back to the pack.

Another Celtic title where Ray plays defense and offense as well as he did last year and I think he cements his position in the top 13. Another title and 4 more years of around 20 PPG and high FT% and 3PT% and Ray may just pass by Miller, Moncrief(no titles for either), Bing, Monroe, and Greer(better overall career stats than these three guys.

I'd take Dumars over him without question.  There are two sides to the floor and it isn't close defensively. 

Oscar Robertson played the vast majority of his career as a SG with Adrian Smith as the PG.  Oscar often didn't bring the ball up nor guard the opposing PG, that was Smith's job.  The Royals did run their offense through Oscar in the half court, which is how he got the majority of his assists.  (think a bigger better version of Iverson)

Paul Arizin made the NBA 50 at 50 list.  He is ahead of Allen.

Adrian Dantley was every bit the scorer that Ray Allen was and was a better all around player.  Some would list him as a SF, but he spent a lot of time at SG.

Many call Jerry West a SG, especially since he played so many years with Goodrich (one of them was the SG).  I can see having him as a PG, but he played a ton at SG.

You could make arguments for many others given Allen's weakness on the defensive side of the court. 

I may want to argue all day that Iverson is actually not a SG but he is.

The same argument that doesn't allow me to take gervin and Iverson out of the equation as SGs doesn't allow us to bring in West, Robertson, or Dantley. West is one of the greatest SFs ever, likewise Robertson as a PG. We shouldn't twist history to simply set Ray Allen a little further on down the list.

And as for Dantley being a SG. On one hand you argue Dumars is one of the greater SGs ever and then argue that a guy that played right alongside him for years at the SF position is also a SG. Makes no sense to me. Dantley was a SF, always was always will be.

I watched Dumars all those years and he played good defense(most of those Pistons did) but we all know that he wasn't the best defensive SG in the league for most of those years he got elected 1st Team All Defense. He got elected via reputation and the legacy of the Pistons championships. MJ was the best defender at the SG position but didn't get recognized until the Bulls second championship.

Dumars was a great player but in my mind I always that he was given a lot more credit for what happened on those Detroit teams than he should have and that Isiah made him look better than he was.

He is definitely a better defender than Ray but I see little else in his game that can be called better than Ray's. Ray is a better rebounder, passer, driver to the basket, had as good a handle on the ball, had better range. Dumars FG% is better because the 3 point FG wasn't nearly as much of his game as Ray's is. And 46% to 44.6% isn't that big a deal anyway.

I mistakenly left him off the list but I would not put him ahead of Ray right now. He's in that same category with Moncrief, Miller, Bing, Monroe and Grier as players that are great but will probably be bypassed by Ray if Ray wins another title and can play 3-4 more very productive years.

[zerophase]

eh... even with ray allen being older, he's still a better shooter than carter ever was and the celtics def lack 3 point shooting. i don't trust a pierce 3 pointer at the buzzer for the game. if you lose allen than your only other game winner shooters are shots are from house and posey? both of which may leave from free agency?

as for the whole positions thing... do players really have a set in stone position? sure most would consider people as what position they played the most as to be their own position but then again, players now and past are multiposition players.

duncan is still listed as a pf... is he one? no. he's a center. for the allstar break, bosh was a backup center... um backup center? what? you have our boy jefferson in minnie playing center... i'm not certain on these older players but at least in my nba games, hondo is listed as a pg even though i know he played sf later in his career...

my point is, i don't think they should break it up to best player for a particular position but do it more like the allstar game does it: best guards, forwards, and centers. getting specific and saying "best shooting guard" is pointless. a lot of the time it really depends on the coach and the team roster.

[Roy Hobbs]

People on the (top 10) list I think Ray is better than:  Drexler...

I love Ray, but Clyde was the man.  I'd put him ahead of Ray by a fairly wide margin.  I mean, at Drexler's peak he was averaging 27 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, nearly 3 steals, and 50% shooting.  Just absolutely phenomenal.

[jdub1660]

Too many IFs in this trade..IF Carter changes his game and becomes a team player and learns defense...NO..His game requires him to have the ball most of the time. He's not a spot up shooter. He can dunk like no other, but he's aging and that will go away. So we trade a reliable Ray Allen(spot up shooter, great passer and instant offense most of the time) to get Carter and hope he plays right...Not happening. Keep allen and prepare to get LeBron after 2010.