Allen for CarterTrade--Discussion on what is realistic trade return for Allen

[Brendan]

I will agree that Ray Allen's signifigant flaws should not be overlooked. Last year there were times when he couldn't hit a shot and was a liability on offense. But he played defense like no one expected - i.e. above average to very good range - consistently. I think the primary idea is to setup a roster where Allen and Pierce can both play less minutes and rest. I believe Ray Allen (the guy who should be resting the most) led the team in MPG. Part of this is Doc didn't truly trust anyone besides Rondo, Pierce, and Allen at the guard spots (and Pierce mostly played SF.)

Ray Allen is tradeable - everyone should be. But with the current team (assuming no more moves are made) - we're title contenders, so any trade should have to preserve that.

[iowa plowboy]

I think he can still be a valuable trade chip due to his expring deal before the 2010 offseason though; something like him and Scal for Jason Richardson and Nazr Mohammed makes sense.

I thought we were going to go through an entire thread without Scal in a trade proposal....What a silly thought.

Rivers' history with high profile bad seeds like say, the tankster's cousin,  is pretty bad...Rivers' history with the Blunts, Davis', Banks' of the world isn't exactly stellar either.  Why put a selfish personality on a team that is void of one? 

[wdleehi]

I think he can still be a valuable trade chip due to his expring deal before the 2010 offseason though; something like him and Scal for Jason Richardson and Nazr Mohammed makes sense.

I thought we were going to go through an entire thread without Scal in a trade proposal....What a silly thought.

Rivers' history with high profile bad seeds like say, the tankster's cousin,  is pretty bad...Rivers' history with the Blunts, Davis', Banks' of the world isn't exactly stellar either.  Why put a selfish personality on a team that is void of one? 

At that point, Scali is a 3.5 million expiring contract.  He is the perfect filler. 

[Celtic_E]

First off, I say never mess with the winning chemistry. We just came off a championship and some guys want to break up the Big 3 already?  Sorry, but I don't get the logic there. If we lost to the Lakers in the Finals, then maybe we could consider trading Ray Allen for a younger replacement. But we all know that isn't the case so knock it off guys. Ray Allen isn't going anywhere and it's not right to discuss trading him especially after his wonderful championship series against the Lakers.

As for the trade idea itself, sorry but I don't think Vince Carter would seamlessly fit Ray Allen's role in the team. Just as some of the other posters pointed out, Carter plays like Pierce. We don't need that in this team right now. What we need is somebody who would take advantage of Pierce's and KG's abilities and that's what Allen does well for us. He spaces the floor well for Garnett and Pierce to operate effectively.

In yet another pot shot to Vince Carter, I think he is another fine example of me-first basketball player. I lost my respect for him after he admitted that he never played at a 100% all the time for the Raptors cause he wanted out. That was a very shameful act IMO. You always give your best whenever you play on the court because not only do you owe it to your employers, but you also owe it to the fans who look up to you all the time. Some even shell out good money just to see you play and yet you have the gall to play at less than a 100% even though you are capable of doing so? Vince Carter doesn't deserve to wear the Celtics' uniform because what he stands for is totally against what this team is about.

[TheReaLPuba]

Ray's getting old, folks. We forget that he was straight up mediocre for stretches of this year and pure shooters tend to deteriorate quickly at his age.

I think he can still be a valuable trade chip due to his expring deal before the 2010 offseason though; something like him and Scal for Jason Richardson and Nazr Mohammed makes sense. It gets the Bobcats WAY under the cap for 2010, possibly in a position to land two big FA's with a little recruiting from MJ. For the C's, it gets them a young, athletic scorer/shooter to replace Ray long term.

Sure he's getting older but he's definitely not old and his game is not diminishing, it's just changing.

With your logic we should be trading Pierce and KG with their hefty contracts as well.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Ray's getting old, folks. We forget that he was straight up mediocre for stretches of this year and pure shooters tend to deteriorate quickly at his age.

We forget how he rushed his return to the court after surgery, sacrificing his recovery, in order to form part of the Celtics renewal; leading by example with his workout regimen. How do we forget that through most of the season he was battling his shooting form because he was basically playing hurt.  How do we forget that he had to completely reinvent his game to fit the team...more than anyone else.  How do we forget that in the Cleveland series their defensive plan was to actually take Ray out of the game like they did no other player... how do we forget how our PG play during that series was utterly disastrous, throwing him off rhythm and killing his confidence.

Yes, he's getting old, but his struggles had a little more to do with the above than with him getting old.

[Roy Hobbs]

Rumors of Ray's decline have been greatly exaggerated.  He's coming off the fourth best shooting year of his career.  As a player who doesn't rely upon his athleticism as much as some others, he very well could have several productive years left in him, ala Reggie Miller.

I like Ray.  I want him to stay, and if we go far into the playoffs next season, I want him to come back for a third season, regardless of how that hinders any plan to set the team up in the future.  I'm sentimental like that.

[nickagneta]

Rumors of Ray's decline have been greatly exaggerated.  He's coming off the fourth best shooting year of his career.  As a player who doesn't rely upon his athleticism as much as some others, he very well could have several productive years left in him, ala Reggie Miller.

I like Ray.  I want him to stay, and if we go far into the playoffs next season, I want him to come back for a third season, regardless of how that hinders any plan to set the team up in the future.  I'm sentimental like that.

Yeah, but based on Danny's previous quotes regarding how he would have traded McHale, Bird and Parish before it was too late, I don't think he's the sentimental type.

Like I said my perfect scenario is like your's Roy, extend Ray to the end of KG's contract and let them then go where they may and use all that cap space however. But perhaps doing that is a log term disservice to this fanbase and if the Celtics can get younger great players in return and, as they used to do in Nebraska Football, reload not rebuild, I think trading Ray in or before his expiring year might be necessary.

[wdleehi]

I have little doubt the Ainge would trade Ray.  At that point, he would have been a 2 year Celtic.  It is not like trading away Bird (which he said he would have done)

[kozlodoev]

I like Ray.  I want him to stay, and if we go far into the playoffs next season, I want him to come back for a third season, regardless of how that hinders any plan to set the team up in the future.  I'm sentimental like that.

Word!

[paintitgreen]

I agree Danny would have no problem trading Ray, but not right now. And, I pray, not for Carter. I hate that guy about as much as I've hated any player in NBA history.

And I agree with Roy, I think he has several productive years left. But he won't play as long as Reggie did. Reggie, though productive, held on for several years, until he was 39, in hopes of getting a ring. Ray won't have that rationale. I think he'll play about 4 more years and retire to the Hall at 36.

So, if he takes a 2-year, relatively low salary (~$5-7 mil per year) contract when his current contract runs out, letting us use the rest of his prior salary for a Rondo extension and free agents, I think we'll probably keep him until he retires, unless we get bowled over with a great offer during the 09-10 season (even then, if we're in the mix for another title, why get rid of him?). Maybe, though, he unofficially retires, doesn't file any retirement paperwork, and we pull a Van Horn with him in a trade in 2012-13, so he can give us one last gift before retiring on another team.

[Jon]

Rumors of Ray's decline have been greatly exaggerated.  He's coming off the fourth best shooting year of his career.  As a player who doesn't rely upon his athleticism as much as some others, he very well could have several productive years left in him, ala Reggie Miller.

I like Ray.  I want him to stay, and if we go far into the playoffs next season, I want him to come back for a third season, regardless of how that hinders any plan to set the team up in the future.  I'm sentimental like that.

Yeah, but based on Danny's previous quotes regarding how he would have traded McHale, Bird and Parish before it was too late, I don't think he's the sentimental type.

Like I said my perfect scenario is like your's Roy, extend Ray to the end of KG's contract and let them then go where they may and use all that cap space however. But perhaps doing that is a log term disservice to this fanbase and if the Celtics can get younger great players in return and, as they used to do in Nebraska Football, reload not rebuild, I think trading Ray in or before his expiring year might be necessary.

A few comments:

1) To some of the previous posters who talked about Ray's struggles, I'd at least partially attribute that to Ray struggling to fit into the role as the third option.  As I've already said in other posts, I think he made the adjustment better than most players would because of his outstanding shooting ability.  Replacing him with another player--in my opinion--is asking for even more adjustment woes. 

2) To Roy, I like how you used the word sentimental--I think it appropriately satirizes those who think it's a good idea to trade Ray because it has nothing to do with sentimentality.  The whole point of making deals is to get better.  When you're already the best, you don't do that. 

3) To nick, while Danny may have said he would have traded Bird, he didn't say that in the summer of 1986 or even the summer of 1987 for that matter, he said that closer to 1990.  So yeah, he might someday trade Ray, but I don't see it happening anywhere close the the proximity of a championship. 

[fairweatherfan06]

Ray when history is written will be considered one of the top 15 if not top 10 shootings guards of all time.  Vinsanity will not be Top 20 (mostly by his own doing and attitude).  I like Jsaad's and Brendan's suggestions the best and I think that is how Ray will go.  He's not gonna chase a payday with the next contract (likely his last) but stability.  I think he'll take a pay cut (he doesn't need the money) and possibly a seat on the bench or a mentorship role once he expires and that would be better value than any trade scenario I forsee. He's one of the greatest shooter in NBA history and that is pretty doggone valuable even into his mid-to late 30's (see Reggie Miller)  Unless some desperate or stupid GM falls for the okie doke, (which is possible) NO TRADE makes much sense.

[Moranis]

The overstatement of Ray Allen's place in history is absurd in this thread.  Top 15 SG all time?  really when did that happen?  That's only possible if you start putting swing players at the other position they play and then still may not happen.   

Greatest shooter ever, when did that happen?  Last time I checked he isn't even the greatest active shooter as both Nash and Peja are ahead of him in both free throw percentage and three point percentage.  Granted Allen is 7th all time in FT% and he could pass Skiles up rather easily next season for 6th all time, but as far as 3PT shooting goes Allen is 33rd all time behind 17 players that have already retired.  To call him the greatest shooter of all time is absolutely absurd.  I think you almost have to say it is Nash at this point as he is the only guy ranking in the top five in each of those categories (guys like Rick Barry who weren't around much of the 3 point era could also make the claim).

[Mr October]

Allen is worth more then Carter. Talent is about the same, you can make a case for each. Both are overpaid, yet Carter's deal runs longer. Therefore Allen is worth more.

And then on top of that, in 2009, when half the league is looking at summer 2010, Allen will be a very valuable trade piece. Until then Allen is a Boston Celtic! He may very well be a Boston Celtic (resigned around the 5-7 million/year) for a couple years after that.

I can't take any Allen trade discussion seriously until 2009.