Allen for CarterTrade--Discussion on what is realistic trade return for Allen

[Brendan]

1. Vince Carter's best position is SF not SG.
2. His play mirrors, rather than compliments Pierce's.
3. He's perpetually injured with the kind of - I'm getting old fast - stuff that can't be cleaned up easily.

This may be the kind of return the C's could expect. However in that case, I'd expect NJ to send us the 2nd round pick. We'd be doing them a huge favor in their Lebron chase while taking a step back. Plus that's the wrong Swift for Danny's liking. A better course is to look to extend Ray Allen for cheap, then fall back to a sign and trade, then fall back to letting him walk, if that's all that's out there for him in a trade.

[Celtic]

It's not a terrible trade, but I think Ray can function well in the C's system while seeing the least of the ball, whereas Carter would fumble in trying to do so. I can't believe I am saying it, but the other problem is Carter doesn't replace Ray's defense, he stepped it up this year and there's no reason to believe he will stop now. Ray is here at least for this season, they just won it all, I don't think it's time to start breaking up a championship team.

[buckets]

might as well waive ray allen for that trade.  wince cryter has always been an addition-by-subtraction guy, IMO.

[Chief]

I think the thing that some people overlook is how irreplaceable Ray Allen is.  Now that's not even to say that he's better than Vince Carter (though I think he is).  But Ray Allen meshes with Pierce and Garnett in a way that most other big stars couldn't.   

I read this argument a lot when people make Ray Allen trade ideas. How do you know another superstar could not sacrifice their game to win a championship? I thought the Lakers team did it nicely the year they got Karl Malone and Payton. The reason they did not win a championship was not chemistry, it was the fact Malone seriously injured his knee.

[nickagneta]

For me, if Ray comes out healthy this year and productive, I think the thing to do is extend him two more years to the end of KG's contract, if he would be willing to do so.

If they both expire together you're talking about over $42 million in expiring contracts after 2012.

That would be my first desire.

But if come trading deadline this year a team that is seriously stumbling and decides they want to start over and having a contract that expires in 2010 to sign a big time FA is the way they want to start over why not trade Ray. Especially if the return value is Melo, Dirk, Jason Richardson and another Bobcat, or something like that.

I fully expect a really good team to stumble big time this year. It seems one does every year. If that team decides they've peaked and it's time to get in the LeBron/Amare/Wade/Bosh sweeps the Celtics could be looking pretty good with a proven winner that has an expiring contract that expires at just the right time!

[indeedproceed]

Ray Allen is:
1) An absolute professional
2) A leader in the locker room and on the floor
3) Obviously mentally tough
4) One of the best shooters in professional basketball

He has shown:
1) An desire to completely buy into our defensive philosophy, both in technique and effort
2) The ability to accept a lesser role in the offense, in exchange for the club's commitment to winning.
 -I understand some may point to his mid-season and post season comments about needing to be more involved in the offense, but those even I feel were made honestly, with respect, and we true.

Anyone we take back must fill the hole at the 2 of being a well above average shooter, and while maybe we won't ever find someone with Ray's professionalism, at least they need to shut their mouths and play basketball and without a doubt give 100% while on the court at all times. Vince Carter doesn't qualify for half of that.

[celts55]

I must admit I'm totally confused that anyone would want to trade Allen. Except for his shooting slump early in the playoffs I thought he was great. He did whatever the team needed. Even when he wasn't scoring he was getting assists and rebounding. Granted he's not the best defender in the league, but he's far from the worst. Personally I thought he could have been named MVP of the finals, when it really counted. Lastly, this is just a guess on my account, but I think he'll be better next year. Last year he was adjusting to a new role and coming off double ankle surgery. Next year he'll have had a full year to recover and come into the year knowing what his role is. The guy keeps himself in fantastic shape, better than a lot of guys much younger in the league and they just won the championship with him playinf a major role. I must be missing something, but I would be very upset if the Celtics were to brake up this unit.

[12417]

This is the kind of thinking that would send the Celtics back to the lottery within 2yrs.. Carter is renown for his softness, to put it kindly. Carter will never be an integral part of a NBA Championship team due to his totally lack of heart. Whenever thing s get tough he has an ankle sprain, hamstring pull, etc., his immature nature is the reason he has poisoned every team he has been a part of, either your opinion of Ray is way too low or opinion of Carter is way too high.

[Jon]

I think the thing that some people overlook is how irreplaceable Ray Allen is.  Now that's not even to say that he's better than Vince Carter (though I think he is).  But Ray Allen meshes with Pierce and Garnett in a way that most other big stars couldn't.     

I read this argument a lot when people make Ray Allen trade ideas. How do you know another superstar could not sacrifice their game to win a championship? I thought the Lakers team did it nicely the year they got Karl Malone and Payton. The reason they did not win a championship was not chemistry, it was the fact Malone seriously injured his knee.

That's only a small part of it.  The Pistons still won in 5 games.  Malone injury or not, there were still another 3 Hall of Famers on that team.  That's no excuse to lose to a team with arguably NO Hall of Famers. 

One of the big problems with that Lakers team is exactly my point.  It's not just about sacrifice, it's about how well your games meld together.  Malone actually worked out well.  While he doesn't quite have KG range, he can drift out and knock down the 16-18 footer.  Had he not been able to do that, he and Shaq would have had a hard time coexisting in the post and Bryant and Payton's driving lanes would have been shut down. 

Payton, on the other hand, was a horrible fit.  And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his willingness to fit in.  As you know, the triangle offense Jackson runs is not run through the PG.  Thus, it's most successful with PGs who are great spot up shooters.  Payton didn't fit this mode at all and struggled mightily to fit in.  This is why he averaged a career low 36% shooting from the field that season (25% from behind the arc) despite having more open looks than anytime in his career.  This is also why in the Finals Derek Fisher put up better numbers than Payton did in the Finals despite playing less minutes: Fisher could hit the trey, Payton couldn't.  And it wasn't only just that Fisher was a better shooter: Fisher was used to hanging out around the three point line waiting for kickouts; Payton wasn't.  Thus, Payton's already mediocre three point shooting became worse. 

This is why I say Ray Allen is so irreplaceable.  Even if another star wants to fit in (which is a gamble to begin with), his game will have to mesh with the other two.  And as I just showed above, it's not just about looking at stats.  Carter is historically a good three point shooter.  But can he adjust to becoming less involved with the offense and becoming a spot up shooter?  I'm not so sure. 

[TheReaLPuba]

Guys both Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett have been here just one year.

It takes time to adjust to the new city and an entirely new environment. Playing for the C's and the historic tradition it's definitely not easy to adjust to.

We haven't even come close to seeing how truly great these two can play.

The best is yet to come.

Imagine 2008 NBA Finals Ray Allen for a whole year.....I think with a year under his belt and if he stays relatively healthy he will feel more comfortable with his role and his offense he will have a fantastic year.

[iowa plowboy]

The tankster is the antithesis of of a Celtic.

Ray sacrificed part of his game for the good of the team and played defense like he never played.

Tank Carter, like his cousin, tanked and sulked when he wanted out of his situation.  What does anybody think someone capable of that would do when he has to share the spotlight with 2 other players who take 30-40 shots between them? 

[theham]

Ray's getting old, folks. We forget that he was straight up mediocre for stretches of this year and pure shooters tend to deteriorate quickly at his age.

I think he can still be a valuable trade chip due to his expring deal before the 2010 offseason though; something like him and Scal for Jason Richardson and Nazr Mohammed makes sense. It gets the Bobcats WAY under the cap for 2010, possibly in a position to land two big FA's with a little recruiting from MJ. For the C's, it gets them a young, athletic scorer/shooter to replace Ray long term.

[kozlodoev]

What's realistic for Allen?

How about a midlevel contract 3 years from now, 2-3 more rings, and a retirement ceremony for #20? Sounds good to me.

[indeedproceed]

What's realistic for Allen?

How about a midlevel contract 3 years from now, 2-3 more rings, and a retirement ceremony for #20? Sounds good to me.

Sounds pretty ideal to me too

[Moranis]

There is nothing that would disgust me more than seeing Vince Carter in a Boston uniform.  He is a team killer, hasnt won anywhere he has gone, and I dont just mean a title I mean gone deep into the playoffs anywhere.  He is a guy that will need more shots than Ray to be productive and from all signs just a bad chemistry guy in general. 

Vince quit in Toronto and everyone knows it, but prior to that Toronto had more success with Vince than any time without Vince (as in they actually won a playoff series). 

BTW, Vince and Ray have almost identical points per shots throughout their careers which includes last year.