Poll

Do you believe there is some level of tampering to affect the outcome of NBA games?

No
5 (23.8%)
Yes, the league often decides champions
6 (28.6%)
Yes, but to a minimal extent and/or sporadically
9 (42.9%)
Not sure
1 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: Fixing games and the NBA  (Read 3743 times)

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Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2022, 11:36:48 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Games are slanted, the home team gets more calls, the league obviously wants long series to make more money. However…the idea that the games are fixed and that the officials determine who advances is ridiculous. The best team always advances. The best team wins the championship each year.

First of all, you literally just admitted there that there's game rigging happening.

First of all, Slanting and rigging/fixing are two different things. Secondly, If something is fixed the outcome is predetermined. And thirdly….




They're literally the same in that they try to fix games in favour of certain teams.

Come on man.

Think about what you're saying for a second. If all home teams get helped by the league, that means it's not a fair game.

This is a percentages game. They don't need to rig 100% of games. If they rig 51%, they make a profit.

Stop with the tinfoil hat nonsense, we're trying to have a legit discussion here. I'm not calling you blind fool either.

I agree that the games are slanted, but by definition a “Fix” predetermines an outcome. The games are not fixed. The tinfoil hats are not nonsense.

K lemme try again because I spelling errorred and explained it poorly.

For betting purposes, they don't have to rig every single match. Or every single call. If they influence every game slightly here and there, they can predict outcomes on a percentage base. That's enough. I don't know how much you know about betting, but there's more than the win/loss column.

If tinfoil hat is fair, then it's also fair to say you're being ignorant. You know, in the interest of treating eachother as equals.

I already said it’s slanted, but that’s not the same as being fixed. Feel like in most sports the home team gets a favorable whistle, not just the NBA. If it was fixed, the best team wouldn’t advance each series. Watching this Mavs/Warriors series, I kinda wish they did Fix it as a Suns/Warriors matchup would have been more interesting.

K I'll try again.

First of all, you're falling over the word "fixing" as an absolute on every single game.

Matchfixing doesn't work the way you think it works.

Not EVERY SINGLE MATCH has to be fixed.

50% of all teams are gonna win, 50% are gonna lose.

If you can somehow guarantee you can predict 51% of the matches right, every single season, you can put $100 on every single game and make a profit.

So what I'm telling you is that you don't have to fix "that one game", if you just influence 100% of all games by just 1%, to make a profit.

Does that make sense?

So match-fixing happens on a more nuanced level.

Don't get hung up on the one statistic.

Yes, the refs influence the game. In any sport… Yes, they will slant things to extend a series to make  more money. But at the end of the day, if the best team is advancing in each series, what do you care?

What do I care?

I care because it's getting more blatant, because it's becoming bigger than just 1%, and it's affecting the game that I love.

Just because YOU settle for "clearly influenced games" doesn't mean others do.

Seriously, we're not even blinking anymore when we say the words "home court advantage".

But if the best team is advancing each series, why does it make you not want to watch anymore? That’s what I don’t understand. The league is out to make as much money as possible, so they want each series to be long. I’m not saying it’s right, but I don’t really worry about it too much if the better team is advancing each time. If they were influencing things to the point where they were guaranteeing that certain teams or certain players(Lebron for example) were advancing, I wold stop watching. It would be the WWE at that point.

You keep saying "the best team advances" as though that's some kind of absolute truth. It's not.

Give me an example of when you thought the best team did not advance in a series. This postseason or any other. I can’t think of any. One poster mentioned when the Mavs beat the Heat in the finals… Not sure I agree, but I guess it’s debatable.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 11:41:56 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2022, 11:52:00 PM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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Quote
In the last 21 playoff games that Scott Foster had refereed (not game 1), the team behind in the series is 19-2.

Grabbed off Twitter so could be wrong, but explain that to me.

The same ref has Chris Paul 0-14 in the playoffs.

James Harden 2-13.

One of Harden's wins was a game vs ... Chris Paul. Immovable object vs unstoppable force.

Tell me how this guy is still reffing?



Exactly. Fixed.

Yeah, those stats have also stood out to me. 

It's hard to ignore that the NBA is an entertainment business, and a billion dollar industry.  I'm not sure I would believe that any billion dollar industry is not fraught with corruption at the highest level.

Yea i don't have much else going on for me, so I just live with watching this.

It's also a bit more fun when the Celts manage to overcome whatever officiating.

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2022, 12:32:21 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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K I'll try again.

First of all, you're falling over the word "fixing" as an absolute on every single game.

Matchfixing doesn't work the way you think it works.

Not EVERY SINGLE MATCH has to be fixed.

50% of all teams are gonna win, 50% are gonna lose.

If you can somehow guarantee you can predict 51% of the matches right, every single season, you can put $100 on every single game and make a profit.

So what I'm telling you is that you don't have to fix "that one game", if you just influence 100% of all games by just 1%, to make a profit.

Does that make sense?

So match-fixing happens on a more nuanced level.

Don't get hung up on the one statistic.

Yes, the refs influence the game. In any sport… Yes, they will slant things to extend a series to make  more money. But at the end of the day, if the best team is advancing in each series, what do you care?

A few factors you may or may agree / disagree on:

1. Extent of tampering.  You seem to agree that it only occurs some games.  Do most games have some degree of tampering/bias, regardless of how much?  Is it more common in playoffs? NBA Finals? 

2. Who is tampering.  A crooked ref or two?  Players?  Team owners?  Or executives of the NBA?

3. Intention.  Maybe the biggest question.  Do you believe it's done intentionally?  For example, refs could have an unconscious bias (e.g., they're influenced by the crowd, stars, or players/coaches they've had the best interactions with over the years).  Or, those in position of power are deliberately affecting the outcomes each year, at a broad level.


An aside, in looking at the teams in the beginning of the playoffs, which two teams do you believe would gross the most income in a Finals match-up?
[/b]

Before seeding was determined, I thought a Suns vs Warriors WCF, would have been by far the most intriguing. In the East would have been a Celtics vs the Nets, ECF. For the Finals, the Warriors vs either the Celtics or Nets would have probably generated the most income.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2022, 12:37:47 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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If the NBA colluded with the refs to fix games and the Players Association found out, the league would crumble. The owners and refs would all go to jail for violating federal law. The NBA would be over.

The refs are incompetent or lousy, but I don't see them as immoral or willing to take paychecks to break the law.

As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, this is a bad one. NBA games are legit, it's just some refs are terrible or incompetent and give the impression of pre determined outcomes.

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2022, 07:51:11 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I think the NBA tries to influence early games to extend the series, but not directly.


They choose certain officials who have the tendencies to make calls that push the game in the direction they hope for.   They put out memos to look at things that may be beneficial to the team they hope win.   


They do not out and out tell nba refs to help team B.

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2022, 09:49:05 AM »

Offline NHHillbilly

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The NBA is like a lot of American culture: while we follow the money and blame the wall street types, the real corruption is Madison Avenue, the marketing people. Marketing makes the NBA more like the WWF than like a sport: and that is what is disgusting to a sports fan. And the marketing of stars and "stories" goes all the way through the entire NBA.
The marketing is that Antetokounmpo is a great basketball player, he is not. He gets called for 2+ offensive fouls a game, but deserves 8-10. He pushes people over and drags them down to the floor on defense and calls it 'playing hard.' Compared to Al Horford or even Rob Williams, he is less skilled. But the narrative is that he is great and players, coaches, refs, announcers, and cameramen, I am sure have to support the narrative.
I recall one game when Embiid speared Rob Williams in the Chest with a vicious elbow. Rob barely got up and down the court for two plays and was out of the game soon after. Rob did not play the next day for 'personal reasons.' The next week Brain Scalabrine mentioned on air that the team was working with Rob about playing hurt and that there was something wrong with Rob playing through pain. When the refs are really terrible the announcers, like Scalabrine, make excuses, blame the players, extol the new more physical NBA, and so on.
I enjoy watching Rob Williams use his timing and quick leaping ability to block shots. I don't enjoy watching him pummeled by goons like Embiid and Antetokounmpo.
I use the word "goons" for their playing style and not their full character. For Embiid's character, I was impressed that he at least is not a hypocrite when Siakam hit him. Embiid was quoted "I think that guy broke my face," and didn't make any angry statements and called it playoff basketball. Antetokounmpo also seems to have no hard feelings: when asked if he hated Marcus Smart, he replied that "Marcus plays hard, like me."
The "star" system in the NBA makes it like the WWF. I prefer sports without a script.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 09:54:54 AM by NHHillbilly »

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2022, 10:17:36 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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NBA may not instruct a ref that a team will win, but there's no way they don't put their thumbs on the scale to help along the desired outcome. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

If the league wanted to, it could clean up the special treatment stars get tomorrow. There's a reason they don't because they believe(maybe rightly so) that individual stars make more money for the league than teams. It's easier to market LeBron in China than it is the Cavs for example. The highlights make these guys look superhuman and you can sell a lot of jerseys casuals who don't know better.

The thing is, the league I think could end up being more successful if it eliminated what it does and allow more parity to grow naturally. The stars are still going to be great, but other teams may have a chance as well.
Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2022, 10:30:39 AM »

Offline Yuckabuck33

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I think the NBA tries to influence early games to extend the series, but not directly.


They choose certain officials who have the tendencies to make calls that push the game in the direction they hope for.   They put out memos to look at things that may be beneficial to the team they hope win.   


They do not out and out tell nba refs to help team B.
If I recall, this was exactly Donaghy's contention.

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2022, 10:50:10 AM »

Offline Yuckabuck33

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NBA may not instruct a ref that a team will win, but there's no way they don't put their thumbs on the scale to help along the desired outcome. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

If the league wanted to, it could clean up the special treatment stars get tomorrow. There's a reason they don't because they believe(maybe rightly so) that individual stars make more money for the league than teams. It's easier to market LeBron in China than it is the Cavs for example. The highlights make these guys look superhuman and you can sell a lot of jerseys casuals who don't know better.

The thing is, the league I think could end up being more successful if it eliminated what it does and allow more parity to grow naturally. The stars are still going to be great, but other teams may have a chance as well.
I agree with this. The winners are not predetermined. The NBA has it's preferred storyline and communicates it in a subtle way to the refs as Donoghy described. The refs give a team a CHANCE, but it doesn't always work.

For example, I believe that the NBA wanted the Nets to win game 4, probably to protect Kevin Durant's reputation. The Nets were given the opportunity to win, with Tatum fouling out on questionable calls, but they could not take it/ the Celtics overcame it. I also thought that game 1 against the Bucks (both Foster games) was slanted. Obviously the Celtics couldn't overcome it. I can't remember seeing another Cs game where the refs were any more than incompetent.
 (Think also of game 7 2010 Finals- Lakers and Kobe were given a chance in the 4th quarter to come back on the Celtics and took it. Otherwise, there was zero reason to switch from letting them play to calling touch fouls in the 4th quarter. Celtics could have pulled it out but lost by 1 I think.)

Re: Fixing games and the NBA
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2022, 10:58:46 AM »

Offline greg683x

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NBA may not instruct a ref that a team will win, but there's no way they don't put their thumbs on the scale to help along the desired outcome. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

If the league wanted to, it could clean up the special treatment stars get tomorrow. There's a reason they don't because they believe(maybe rightly so) that individual stars make more money for the league than teams. It's easier to market LeBron in China than it is the Cavs for example. The highlights make these guys look superhuman and you can sell a lot of jerseys casuals who don't know better.

The thing is, the league I think could end up being more successful if it eliminated what it does and allow more parity to grow naturally. The stars are still going to be great, but other teams may have a chance as well.
I agree with this. The winners are not predetermined. The NBA has it's preferred storyline and communicates it in a subtle way to the refs as Donoghy described. The refs give a team a CHANCE, but it doesn't always work.

For example, I believe that the NBA wanted the Nets to win game 4, probably to protect Kevin Durant's reputation. The Nets were given the opportunity to win, with Tatum fouling out on questionable calls, but they could not take it/ the Celtics overcame it. I also thought that game 1 against the Bucks (both Foster games) was slanted. Obviously the Celtics couldn't overcome it. I can't remember seeing another Cs game where the refs were any more than incompetent.
 (Think also of game 7 2010 Finals- Lakers and Kobe were given a chance in the 4th quarter to come back on the Celtics and took it. Otherwise, there was zero reason to switch from letting them play to calling touch fouls in the 4th quarter. Celtics could have pulled it out but lost by 1 I think.)


This league was drowning and was saved by Magic and Larry.  Then Michael took them to newer financial heights.  Stars sell tickets. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 11:11:39 AM by greg683x »
Greg